Discussion:
List of Prisons in Cuba. List of Prisons in Cuba. List of Prisons in Cuba. Re: The REAL Cuba! List of Prisons in Cuba.
(demasiado antiguo para responder)
Dan Christensen
2005-12-18 04:56:12 UTC
Permalink
Gee, Pedro, when did you become a "Centro?" Ha, ha, ha!

As you know, Pedro, the USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world
with 724 per 100,000 of national population. The Cuban rate is 487 per
100,000. This according to the International Centre for Prison Studies, a
for REAL centre, Pedro, that even your pals at that the Cuban American
National Front (CANF) in Miami recently extolled as "an authority on world
incarceration systems."

From the ICPS website:
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/rel/icps/worldbrief/highest_to_lowest_rates.php

Follows links to "Entire World - Prison Population Rates per 100,000 of the
national population."

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
torresD
2005-12-18 05:19:29 UTC
Permalink
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/activeinmates/List.asp?DataAction=Filte
El Caganer
2005-12-18 18:51:01 UTC
Permalink
And your point is?

What do you have to say:
Is there such a thing as a Hispanic criminal?
Do Hispanics commit crimes?
Should Hispanics who commit murders be tried in courts?
Should Hispanics who are child molesters be tried in courts?
Should Hispanics who rape women be tried in courts?
Should convicted Hispanic criminals be incarcerated?
If a Hispanic commits and is convicted in court of a rape, or murder, or
sexual molestation of a child,is that Hispanic a Political Prisoner? Is he
a hero of yours?

I no capiche!



" torresD" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Bj6pf.7448$***@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> http://www.dc.state.fl.us/activeinmates/List.asp?DataAction=Filte
>
CENTRO ANTICOMUNISTA
2005-12-28 15:43:08 UTC
Permalink
A VER SI LOS IZQUIERDOSOS AQUI PUEDEN DESMENTIR EL HECHO DE QUE LOS CUBANOS ESTAN IMPEDIDOS DE ACCEDER LIBREMENTE A LA INTERNET...

AQUI TIENEN DIRECCIONES PARA QUE ENTREN EN CONTACTO Y VEANSI LES PUEDEN RESPONDER A SUS EMAILS ..JE, JE, ...JE,JE

ARRIBA !!! METAN MANO A PROBAR...

UN REGIMEN QUE PROHIBE TODO CONTACTO LIBRE CON EL EXTERIOR,
SEAN PERSONAS O INFORMACION ES PORQUE TIENE MIEDO...PERO DIGAN MIEDO A QUE Y PORQUE ???????????


DIRECCIONES EMAILS EN CUBA. LISTA DE,



***@tinored.cu Mr.Abel Herrera / SoftInd - La Habana
***@tinored.cu Mr. Mr.Empresa Prov. Acopio / Camaguey
***@tinored.cu Mr. Mr.Angel Gutierrez / Dpto. Cibern.- IIT')
***@tinored.cu Mr.Ascii Design Group / PalaComp')
***@tinored.cu Mr. Alexis Campistrous / Colaborador-PalaComp
***@tinored.cu name: Mr. Centro de Estudios Sobre Asia y Oceania)
***@tinored.cu Mr. Empresa de Asistencia Tecnica a Microcomp.
***@tinored.cu "Mr. Grupo Bases de Datos / PalaComp",
***@tinored.cu " Mr. Biblioteca / U.H.",
***@tinored.cu Mr. Presidencia Nacional de las B.T.J / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Carlos Valdes / Supervisor TinoRed/RedDavid
***@tinored.cu Mr. Justo E. Vasco Colas / AIEP
***@tinored.cu Mr. Casa de las Americas
***@tinored.cu Mr. El Castillito / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Centro de Biofisica Medica / Santiago de Cuba
***@tinored.cu Mr. Centro de Estudios Sobre America
***@tinored.cu Mr. Centro de Estudios de Africa y el Medio Oriente / La Habana.
***@tinored.cu Mr. Mr. Centro de Estudios Sobre Alternativas Politicas
***@tinored.cu Mr. Mr. Deleg. Prov. C.E.E. / Camaguey
***@tinored.cu Mr. Mr. Centro de Estudios Martianos
***@tinored.cu Mr. Mr. Grupo "Computacion Electronica y Robotica" (CER) / Camaguey
***@tinored.cu Mr. Mr. Centro de Desarrollo del CEDISATEMA
***@tinored.cu Mr. Mr. Centro de Estudios Sobre Estados Unidos
***@tinored.cu Mr. Mr. Centro de Elaboracion Sotf Educativo / MINED
***@tinored.cu Mr. Mr. Centro Invest. Economia Internacional
***@tinored.cu Mr. Mr. Centro de Investigacion de la Economia Mundial
***@tinored.cu Mr. Centro Inf. y Est. s/Relaciones Interamericanas / ONG
***@tinored.cu Mr. Study Center on International Security and Intelligence Activities
***@tinored.cu Mr. Centro de Inf. para la Prensa / UPEC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Centro Inf. Prod. y Recop. de Soft. / ISPFV - Villa Clara
***@tinored.cu Mr. Centro Nacional de Inf. Ciencias Medicas / MINSAP
***@tinored.cu Mr. Periodico "Computacion" / Editora Abril - UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Secretaria de Finanzas / RedDavid
***@tinored.cu Mr. Centro Reg. Entrenamto. de Prof. de Ing. y Arquitec. / ISPJAE
***@tinored.cu Mr. Centro de Servicios Tecnicos / MINCOM
***@tinored.cu Mr. Movimiento Cubano por la Paz
***@tinored.cu Mr. Daniel Chavarria / AIEP - UNEAC
***@tinored.cu Mr. David Izada / UCLV
***@tinored.cu Mr. Deleg. Territorial Habana / MINAGRI
***@tinored.cu Mr. Dpto. Informacion Cientifica / MES
***@tinored.cu Mr. Direccion Nac. Electromedicina / MINSAP
***@tinored.cu Mr. Direccion Quimica / CENIC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Deutsche Solidaritaet / Solidaridad Alemana
***@tinored.cu Mr. Biotecnologia de las Plantas / CENIC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Dpto. Tecnico / Radio Habana Cuba
***@tinored.cu Mr. Editora Politica / CC del PCC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Editorial Jose Marti
***@tinored.cu Mr. Equipo Nacional de Computacion / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Emp. de Serv. Informaticos / Holguin
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club ExpoCuba / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Fiscalia General de la Republica
***@tinored.cu Mr. Madeline Yakimchuk / Ed. J. Marti
***@tinored.cu Mr. Gail Reed / Cuba Update
***@tinored.cu Mr. Grupo de Desarollo Unix / PalaComp
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***@tinored.cu Mr. Dpto. de Hardware / PalaComp
***@tinored.cu Mr. Roberto Homs / Telematica Int.
***@tinored.cu Mr. Estacion Terrena de Holguin / MINCOM
***@tinored.cu Mr. Intituto Cubano de Amistad con los Pueblos
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***@tinored.cu Mr. Comite Organizador Informatica '94 / INSAC
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***@tinored.cu Mr. Instituto Nacional de Turismo
***@tinored.cu Mr. Irving Aquino / Colaborador - PalaComp
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***@tinored.cu Mr. Inst. Sup. de Relac. Internacionales
***@tinored.cu Mr. Adalberto Mora / Dtor. Nac. J. Club
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Ciego de Avila / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Moron / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Juan Carlos Fdez / Sub Dtor Revista ENIGMA-UNEAC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Roberto Pino / Dtor. Prov. J. Club - La Habana
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***@tinored.cu Mr. Geraldo Florat / Dtor. Prov. J. Club - Camaguey
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Camaguey / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Florida / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Nuevitas / UJC
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***@tinored.cu Mr. Saul Carrazana / Dtor. Prov. J. Club - Cienfuegos
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Abreus / UJC
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***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club CEN (Cienfuegos) / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Cienfuegos / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Wilfredo Ramirez / Dtor. Prov. J. Club - Granma
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Bayamo / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Manzanillo / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Niquero / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Julian Jimenez / Dir. Prov. J. Club - Ciudad de la Habana
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Boyeros / UJC
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***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Centro Habana / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Cotorro / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Guanabacoa / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Habana del Este / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Habana Vieja / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club La Lisa / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Marianao / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Playa / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Luis Bernabeu / Dtor. Mcpal. J. Club - Isla de la Juventud
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Nueva Gerona / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Fidel. A. Pancorbo / Dtor. Prov. J. Club - Matanzas
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Calimete / UJC
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***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Colon / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Jaguey / UJC
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***@tinored.cu Mr. Marisol Jimenez / Dtora. Prov. J. Club - Guantanamo
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Baracoa / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Guantanamo / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Sonia Freman / Dtora. Prov. J. Club - Holguin
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***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Moa / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Guillermo Hernandez / Dtor. Prov. J. Club - Pinar de Rio
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Mantua / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Pinar del Rio / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club San Cristobal / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Ridel Martell / Dir. Prov. J. Club - Sancti Spiritus
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***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Trinidad / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Hermes C. T. / Dtor. Prov. J. Club - Las Tunas
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Amancio Rodrguez / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Colombia / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Las Tunas / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Luis E. Parra / Dtor. Prov. J. Club - Santiago de Cuba
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Contramaestre / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Santiago de Cuba / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Esther L. Perez / Dtora. Prov. J. Club - Villa Clara
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Caibarien / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Camajuani / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Manicaragua / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Placetas / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Ranchuelo / UJC
***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Remedios / UJC
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***@tinored.cu Mr. Joven Club Santa Clara (1) / UJC
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***@tinored.cu Mr. Jesus Cano / Colaborador-PalaComp
***@tinored.cu Mr. Juan Mario Dilme Medina / Colaborador - PalaComp
***@tinored.cu Mr. Karen Lee Wald / Periodista
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***@tinored.cu Mr. Karen Wald / Periodista - APC
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***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro de Informacion / PCC Santiago de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro de Informacion / PCC Guantanamo
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***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro de Invest. de Patologia Cuantitativa - Estereologia - Morfomet
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***@ceniai.cu Mr. CMICT / Camaguey
***@ceniai.cu Mr. CMICT / Ciego de Avila
***@ceniai.cu Mr. CMICT / Holguin
***@ceniai.cu Mr. CMICT / Cienfuegos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. CMICT / Guantanamo
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***@ceniai.cu Mr. CMICT / Las Tunas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. CMICT / Matanzas
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***@ceniai.cu Mr. Comision Cubana de la UNESCO-CNCU
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Nac. Div. Ciencia y Tecnica / CNDCT
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Nacional de Electromedicina / MINSAP
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Nacional de Informacion / Ciencias Medicas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro de Calculo Nacional del Comite Estatal de Estadisticas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Luis Cobo / Supervision Ceniai
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Oficina Comercial CUPET S.A. / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Dpto. de Colaboracion IDICT
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Colcyt-Conicit / Antonio Leone
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Universidad de Colima / Mexico
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Comision Nac. de Proteccion Medio Ambiente / Uso Racional de Recurso
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Tiendas INTUR / Ciudad Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Tiendas INTUR / Varadero
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Oficina Comerical del Niquel / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Construimport
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Consumimport
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Comercial Contex / SA.
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Copextel. Emp. de Asistencia Tecnica. Servicios Postventa / Asistel
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Copextel. Subdireccion Comercial
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Copextel. Direccion Combinado
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Copextel. Emp. Productora de Tecnologia Electronica
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Combinado Copextel. Emp. Softel. Lab. Inteligencia Artificial
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Copextel. Buro de Ingenieria
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Copextel. Emp. Productora Santiago de Cuba / Esatel
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Copextel. Emp. Productora de Software / Softel
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Copextel. Planta Productora Villa Clara / Ecetel
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro Provincial de Informacion de Ciencias Medicas de Camaguey
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. de Electromedicina / Ciego de Avila
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. de Electromedicina / Cienfuegos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. de Electromedicina / Ciudad Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. de Electromedicina / Camaguey
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. de Electromedicina / Granma
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. de Electromedicina / Guantanamo
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. de Electromedicina / La Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. de Electromedicina / Holguin
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. de Electromedicina / Las Tunas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. de Electromedicina / Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. de Electromedicina / Pinar del Rio
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. de Electromedicina / Santi Spiritus
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. de Electromedicina / Stgo de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. de Electromedicina / Villa Clara
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro de Prensa Internacional
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro Provincial de Inform. de Ciencias Medicas / Camaguey
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro Provincial de Inform. de Ciencias Medicas / Cienfuegos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro Provincial de Inform. de Ciencias Medicas / Granma
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro Provincial de Inform. de Ciencias Medicas / Guantanamo
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro Provincial de Inform. de Ciencias Medicas / Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro Provincial de Inform. de Ciencias Medicas / Holguin
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro Provincial de Inform. de Ciencias Medicas / Isla de la Juventu
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro Provincial de Inform. de Ciencias Medicas / Las Tunas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro Provincial de Inform. de Ciencias Medicas / Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro Provincial de Inform. de Ciencias Medicas / Pinar del Rio
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro Provincial de Inform. de Ciencias Medicas / Stgo de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro Provincial de Inform. de Ciencias Medicas / Sancti Spiritus
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro Provincial de Inform. de Ciencias Medicas / Villa Clara
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro de Quimica Farmaceutica
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro de Quimica Farmaceutica
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro de Quimica Farmaceutica
***@ceniai.cu Mr. IVIC / Venezuela
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Regional de Entren. Prof. de Ing. y Arquit. en Informatica
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Traducciones Ciencia y Tecnica.
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro Territorial de Electromedicina Isla de la Juventud
***@ceniai.cu Mr. CTISA / Telematica Int. SA
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Tecnologia y Calidad / C.Habana.
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Escuela Superior de Cuadros / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Union Inv.-Prod.celulosa y bagazo / CUBA 9
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Cubanacan S.A
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Juan Carro / CENIAI
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Cubaexport / MINCEX
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Gerencia de Cubanacan / Holguin
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Cubaindustria
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Cubalse / Cuba al Servicio del Extranjero
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Cubana de Aviacion
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Empresa Turistica CUBATUR
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Cuervo (MINCEX)
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Movimiento Cubano por la Paz
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Union CUPET (Combust-Petrol) / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Cubatabaco
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Cristina Vasconi / APC Nicarao
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Delegacion Provincial de la ACC / Holguin
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Delegacion de la ACC - Isla de la Juventud
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Delegacion ACC - Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. DATACIMEX S.A.
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. Autom. Datos Minaz / DATAZUCAR
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Direccion CEN / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Direccion de Cooperacion Exterior / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. MINED / Emilio del Canal
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Direccion de Economia Academia de Ciencias de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Direccion de Economia del SIME
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Desarrollo Quimica / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Dpto. Epidemiologia Sanatorio Santiago de las Vegas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Division Camilo Cienfuegos / Ferrocarriles de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Dir. Investigacion Cientifica. / Defensa Civil
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Division Centro-Este / Ferrocarriles de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Division Centro / Ferrocarriles de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Dpto. Informacion y Docum. Cientifico Tecnica / Min. de la Pesca
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Division Guantanamo / Ferrocarriles de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Division Habana / Ferrocarriles de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Division Matanzas / Ferrocarriles de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Division Oriente / Ferrocarriles de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Division Pinar del Rio / Ferrocarriles de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Complejo Gaviota / Holguin
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Direccion Nacional de Electromedicina / MINSAP
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Baudilio Jardines Mendez / Vice Ministro MINSAP
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Juan Antonio Blanco / Dpto. America.
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Departamento Operativo Niquel (Almacen) / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Direccion Quimica CENIC
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Dpto de Quimica/Universidad de oriente
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Direccion Ramal de Ciencias Sociales / ACC
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Dpto. Redes / ICID
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Relaciones Internacionales / ACC
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Relaciones Internacionales / Univ. Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Direcc. de Sistemas / INTUR
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Biotecnologia de las Plantas / CNIC
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. Cubana de Acun~aciones
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. de Cemento Rene Arcay / Mariel C. Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. de Cemento M. de Artemisa La Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. de Cemento Carlos Marx / Cienfuegos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Empresa de Comunicaciones / Holguin
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. de Cemento 26 de Julio / Nuevitas Camaguey
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. de Cemento Jose Merceron / Stgo de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp Computacion / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Instit. de Ecologia y Sistematica A.C.C.
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. de Cemento Siguaney / Sancti Spiritus
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ediciones Cubanas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro de diseno de sistemas automatizados / SIME
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. de Robotica y Software
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Direccion de Electronica / Academia de Ciencias de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Embajada de Mexico
***@ceniai.cu Mr. EMIDICT / Academia de Ciencias de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emilio Badias / Dpto SERTEL-CENIAI
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Estado Mayor Nacional de la Defensa Civil
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. Conrado Benitez / Habana.
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp Industria Electronica
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. Suministros Medicos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Energoimport / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Energoproyecto / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Enzo Puliatti / PNUD - New York
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. de Comunicaciones / Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Dr Otto Hernandez Cossio
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. Proyectos para Industrias de la Basica / CECE
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Efrain Sto. Domingo Sarduy
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp de Servicios Informativos de Ciego de Avila ESICA/INSAC
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. Servicios de Ingenieria
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp de Servicios Informaticos Ciudad Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp de Servicios Informaticos Cienfuegos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Seguros Internacionales / ESICUBA
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp de Servicios Informaticos Camaguey
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp de Servicios Informaticos granma
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp de Servicios Informaticos Guantanamo
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp de Servicios Informaticos Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp de Servicios Informaticos Holguin
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Empresa de Servicios Informaticos/Holguin
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp de Servicios Informaticos Isla de La Juventud
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp de Servicios Informaticos Las Tunas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. de Suministros Industriales / SIME
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp de Servicios Informaticos Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp de Servicios Informaticos Pinar del Rio
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp de Servicios Informaticos Stgo de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp de Servicios Informaticos Sancti Spiritus
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp de Servicios Informaticos Villa Clara
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Embajada de Cuba en Espana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Esc.Superior PCC "Nico Lopez"
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Hotel Estrella / Varadero
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. de Transporte de Equipos Pesados / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Turhoteles
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Turhoteles
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro de Diseno Empresa Turhoteles
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Direccion de Empresa Turhoteles
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Puesto de Mando Empresa Turhoteles
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. Terminales Mambisa
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Dpto. Evaluacion de Proyectos / CENIAI
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Evento Expolingua/CTTE
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Instituto de Meteorologia
***@ceniai.cu Mr. FAO / Food and Agric. Organization
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Prof.Jose E. Fdez Britto
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Flota Cubana de Pesca
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Facultad de Ensenanza Dirigida/Universidad de la Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Sub-Dir Exportaciones e Importaciones / Ferrocarriles de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Federacion Internacional de Inf. y Doc. \ Comision Latinoamericana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Instituto de Filosofia \ Lic. Humberto Miranda
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Direccion Provincial de Finanzas Guantanamo
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Comite Estatal de Finanzas / Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Finanzas CIMEX
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Facultad de Fisica / Universidad de la Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Frank Manitzas / ABC Latin American Bureau
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Federacion de Mujeres Cubanas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Fondo de Sistemas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Fidel Hernandez Forte / INSAC
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Francis / Peacenet
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Fausto Zarza / IDICT
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Gail Reed / Cuba Update
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Grupo de Atencion a Red del SNICT IDICT
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Grupo Sad Gaviota Holguin
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Instituto de Gastroenterologia / MINSAP
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Grupo de Turismo Gaviota S.A. Dpto de Computacion
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Genios / Hans-Yoajim Zensti
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. de Geologia y Paleontologia / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Union Geologo-Minera / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Union de la Goma / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Gloria Ponjuan / IDICT
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Green Soft / Software a Medida
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Grupo de Servicios Tecnicos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Grupo de Automatizacion Comones /Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Grupo de Transmision de Datos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Havana Atherosclerosis Reference Center
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Hotel Capri
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro de Ingenieria Genetica y Biotecnologia
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Instituto de Hematologia e Inmunologia / MINSAP
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Equipo Provincial de Computacion Las Tunas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Dr.Raul Herrera / Director Inst.Nefrologia
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Hotel Guardalavaca / Holguin
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Hospital Hermanos Ameijeiras / Biblioteca
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. Elementos Hidraulicos / Jose Gregorio Martinez / Cienfuegos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Hector Terry Molinert / Vice Ministro MINSAP
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. de Historia de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Hotel Habana Libre
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Dpto de Computacion / Hotel Nacional de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Homs / CTISA
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Theodore Hope / Administracion de Sistema Huracan - CSUCA
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Hotel Tuxpan / Varadero
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Hotel Plaza
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Hotel Presidente
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Hotel Riviera
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Hotel Santiago / Santiago de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Rene Huerta / Chile
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Estacion Terrena de Holguin
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Hotel Vedado
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Instituto de Aeronautica Civil de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. de Ciencia Animal
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Cubano de Hidrografia
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Central de Investigacion Digital / INSAC
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Instituto Central de Investigaciones de Derivados de la Cana de Azuca
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Informacion Cientifica y Tecnica del ICID
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Cibernetica Matematica y Fisica / ICIMAF
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Demanda Interna / ICIODI
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. de Docum. e Informacion en Ciencia y Tecnologia / Espan~a
***@ceniai.cu Mr. IDICT Consultor-Asesor
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ignacio Gonzalez Planas / Ministro del SIME
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Instituto de Investigaciones para la Industria Alimenticia
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Instituto de Investigaciones Porcinas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Investigacion del Transporte
***@ceniai.cu Mr. IME
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. de Materiales y Reactivos para la Electronica / Univ. Hab
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Nac. Ciencia Agricola
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Universidad de Camaguey
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Evento INFO93
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Comite Organizador Informatica 94
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Supervisor Boletin / CENIAI
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Grupo de Informatica Universidad de Camaguey
***@ceniai.cu Mr. InFoexpert / Uwe Wolf
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp Servicios Informativos de Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Palacio del Turismo / Ciudad de La Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Julio Telot / Universidad de Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Instituto de la Cana de Azucar
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. de Investigaciones Economicas / JUCEPLAN
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Instituto Nac. de Investigaciones del Cerebro
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Centro de Inmunoensayo
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Instituto de Neurologia y Neurocirugia
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Instituto Nacional de Oncologia y Radiobiologia
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Instituto Nacional de Recursos Hidraulicos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Nac. Sist. Autom. y Tecnicas de Computacion
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Agencia Internacional de Inspeccion y Ajustes de Averias
***@ceniai.cu Mr. INTERTEL SA
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Instituto de Planificacion Fisica / JUCEPLAN
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Medicina Tropical "Pedro Kouri"
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Superior Agricola / Ciego de Avila
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Superior Ciencias Agropecuarias Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Superior de Cultura Fisica Manuel Fajardo
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Superior Latinoam. Ajedrez
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Sup. Politecnico Jose A. Echevarria / MES
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Superior Politecnico Julio Antonio Mella / Stgo de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Superior de Relaciones Internacionales
***@ceniai.cu Mr. InterCross Trading Corporation
***@ceniai.cu Mr. David Izada U.H. Villa Clara
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Hector Manuel Jacas - BIOTEC
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Javier Arboli
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Jardin Botanico / Cienfuegos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Joven Club de Computacion Amancio
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Joven Club Los Arabos/Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Joven Club Calimete/Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Joven Club Camaguey
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Joven Club Cardenas/Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Joven Club Computacion / Holguin
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Joven Club de Computacion/Colon
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Joven Club Jaguey/Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Joven Club Jovellanos/Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Joven Club de Computacion / Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Joven Club Varadero / Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Joven Club Perico/Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Joven Club Colombia / Las Tunas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Joven Club de Computacion de las Tunas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Jesus Martinez / Dpto Base Tecnica-CENIAI
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Jesus Palma Abreus / Comite Estatal de Estadistica Cfgos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Jesus Rodriguez Verde (Publimerc)
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Jo-Anne Scott
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Juan Carlos Gutierrez / CENIAI staff
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Asociacion Cubana de Esperanto
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Director Inst. Medicina Tropical
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Karen Wald / APC
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Lena Petrova / Moscu
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. de Literatura y Linguistica / ACC
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Lab. Materiales Sinteticos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Saulo A. Lopez-Rosell - Universidad Indiana / E.U
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Laboratorio Tecnico de Medicamentos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Luis Miguel / Colaborador ceniai
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Dr Miguel Angel Buergo Zuaznabar
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Maig'43 S.A.
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Consignataria Mambisa / MITRANS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Dr.Manalich / Subdirector Nefrologia
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Puesto de Mando de Turhoteles
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Maquimport
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Equipo de Marketing Facultad de Economia U.H.
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Marpesca
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Maxine Orris
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. Higiene y Epidemiologia / Ciego de Avila
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Delegacion de Comercio Exterior en Camaguey
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Delegacion de Comercio Exterior en Cienfuegos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Delegacion de Comercio Exterior en Holguin
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Delegacion de Comercio Exterior en Santiago de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. Higiene y Epidemiologia / Cienfuegos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. Higiene y Epidemiologia / Camaguey
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. Higiene y Epidemiologia / Ciudad Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Medicuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Curso Taller Internacional en la Medicina Tradicional
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Medicina del Trabajo / IMT
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Canadian Merchant Venture. Alta.
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. Metalurgica / Camaguey
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Metalurgica Tunas / Las Tunas.
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Inst. Meteorologia / ACC
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. Higiene y Epidemiologia / Granma
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. Higiene y Epidemiologia / Guantanamo
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. Higiene y Epidemiologia / Holguin
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Micherenkov. Serv. Tecnicistas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Roberto Morales Aleman MINCOM / Santa Clara
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Mpal Higiene y Epidemiologia / Isla de la Juventud
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Mimi Whitefield / Miami Herald
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ministerio de la Agricultura
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Silvio Tejeda / MINAZ
***@ceniai.cu Mr. MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Mincex / Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. MINIL
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Dpto. ICT MINIL
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ministerio Relaciones Exteriores/Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Mitel Corporation
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. Higiene y Epidemiologia / La Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. Higiene y Epidemiologia / Las Tunas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. Higiene y Epidemiologia / Matanzas
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro de Inmunologia Molecular
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. Higiene y Epidemiologia / Pinar del Rio
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Facultad de Matematica y Cibernetica/Universidad de la Habana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. Cub. Importadora de Materias Primas / mprinter
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. Higiene y Epidemiologia / Stgo de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. Higiene y Epidemiologia / Sancti Spiritu
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Dpto. de Equipos e Instrumentos Medicos / MINSAP
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Direccion Nacional de Estadisticas / MINSAP
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Prov. Higiene y Epidemiologia / Villa Clara
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Maria del Carmen Perez / CENIAI STAFF
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. Navegacion Caribe
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Emp. Navegacion Mambisa
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Cadena de Television NBC
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Division of Chemistry CNIC / Havana
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Negocios Conjuntos
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Nucleo de Equipos e Informatica Medica / Stgo de Cuba
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Ctro Iberoamericano de Trasplante
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Congreso de Neurologia y Neurocirugia
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Union del Niquel (Moa) / MINBAS
***@ceniai.cu Mr. Nodo de Comunicaciones de Holguin
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"Crusader" <***@xyz.com> a écrit dans le message de news:W0qsf.51903$***@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
Is your name Bob,or perhaps Bobo,you sound just like one.


"Bob" <***@bob.con> wrote in message news:doi239$i16$***@pita.alt.net...
> KRP wrote:
> > "Socialism enslaves kills & loots"
> > <Socialism_enslaves_kills_&***@nospam.red> wrote in message
> > news:***@216.196.97.142...
> >> Bob <***@bob.con> wrote :
> >>
> >>> See that issue. It exaggerates the value of Russian goods
> >>> given to Cuba and underestimates the value of Cuban sugar
> >>> traded to USSR.>
> >> The failing USSR could no longer support the failed Communist
> >> regime in Cuba.
> >
> > Then Bob try to answer IN YOUR OWN head - how come NO Communist
government
> > has ever succeeded?
>
> Cuba has succeeded wildly. So did China under Mao. And in some ways, so
> did the USSR, for quite a few decades.
>
> Based on your definition, I regard much of the capitalist 3rd world as
> not having "succeeded" either. In fact, I regard the US that way. Big
time!
Bob
2006-01-01 05:43:59 UTC
Permalink
KRP wrote:
> "Crusader" <***@xyx.com> wrote in message
> news:Fzmtf.85063$***@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
>> While i dislike dictators of every sign,the sad truth is: to oust a left
>> wing conspiracy to obtain power or a left wing dictator you need a right
>> wing conspiracy or dictator,change the signs at your pleasure:)A democracy
>> will never be able to,it is too vulnerable a system of goverment,still
>> America is a democracy albeit we are slowy drifting away from it,the
>> danger
>> of totalitarism is getting too close for confort
>
> The trouble is, that that limited thinking is also used by the left.

You know, Ken, sometimes you are dumb as a rock about this stuff (like
80% of the US population) and other times, like here, there are flashes
of epiphany.

So
> what we can see in Latin America is an endless treadmill for the people of
> being shunted from a brutal right wing dictatorship to a brutal left wing
> dictatorship and back to a brutal right wing dictatorship.

In general, there have just been de facto rightwing dictatorships. Real
leftwing regimes in the Americas have been few and far between:

1. Aristide (destroyed by 2 US coups and a contra invasion - the
subsequent regimes killed 6,000 people in 4 years)
2. Manley Jamaica 1978 (destroyed by US)
3. Revolutionary Mexico (degenerated into parody)
4. Chavez (multiple attempts at destruction by US coups and threats and
economic warfare)
5. Peron (destroyed by a US coup in 1978 - the subsequent regime killed
30,000 people)
6. Bolivia 1952 (destroyed by US and the Right)
7. Allende (destroyed by a US coup in 1973 which preceded US threats and
economic warfare - subsequent regime killed 15,000 people)
8. Kirchner Argentina
9. Uruguay (has done zero)
10. Lula does not count (has done almost nothing)
11. Castro (multiple attempts at destruction US invasions and contras)
12. Arbenz Guatemala (destroyed by a US coup and contra invasion -
subsequent regimes killed 200,000 people)
13. Dominican Republic 1964 (destroyed by a US coup and invasion - 100's
were killed afterwards)
14. Grenada (destroyed by a US coup and invasion)
15. Populist regime in El Salvador 1980 (destroyed by a US coup -
subsequent regimes killed 75,000 people)
16. Brazil 1964 (destroyed by a US coup)

It has many
> aspects of sitting in a line with the net at a tennis match, OR given that
> these left and right wing dictators all seem to take sport at killing people
> they suspect of being contras, it may be line one of those shooting
> galleries at the arcade and the people are just the ducks that run by to be
> shot.

The number of killer leftwing regimes in the Americas is laughably
small, and vastly outnumbered by the killer rightwing regimes. Outside
of Cuba, the Left in power in the Americas has scarcely killed a soul.
>
> What Latin America NEEDS is a revolution that is neither right nor left
> but really for the people! Novel idea, huh?

Straw man...

If it's not Left, it's NEVER pro-people, ever, anywhere on Earth, as a
general rule.
Gwo Mango
2006-01-02 16:03:56 UTC
Permalink
Bob wrote:
> KRP wrote:
> > "Crusader" <***@xyx.com> wrote in message
> > news:Fzmtf.85063$***@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> >
> >> While i dislike dictators of every sign,the sad truth is: to oust a left
> >> wing conspiracy to obtain power or a left wing dictator you need a right
> >> wing conspiracy or dictator,change the signs at your pleasure:)A democracy
> >> will never be able to,it is too vulnerable a system of goverment,still
> >> America is a democracy albeit we are slowy drifting away from it,the
> >> danger
> >> of totalitarism is getting too close for confort
> >
> > The trouble is, that that limited thinking is also used by the left.
>
> You know, Ken, sometimes you are dumb as a rock about this stuff (like
> 80% of the US population) and other times, like here, there are flashes
> of epiphany.
>
> So
> > what we can see in Latin America is an endless treadmill for the people of
> > being shunted from a brutal right wing dictatorship to a brutal left wing
> > dictatorship and back to a brutal right wing dictatorship.
>
> In general, there have just been de facto rightwing dictatorships. Real
> leftwing regimes in the Americas have been few and far between:
>
> 1. Aristide (destroyed by 2 US coups and a contra invasion - the
> subsequent regimes killed 6,000 people in 4 years)
> 2. Manley Jamaica 1978 (destroyed by US)
> 3. Revolutionary Mexico (degenerated into parody)
> 4. Chavez (multiple attempts at destruction by US coups and threats and
> economic warfare)
> 5. Peron (destroyed by a US coup in 1978 - the subsequent regime killed
> 30,000 people)
> 6. Bolivia 1952 (destroyed by US and the Right)
> 7. Allende (destroyed by a US coup in 1973 which preceded US threats and
> economic warfare - subsequent regime killed 15,000 people)
> 8. Kirchner Argentina
> 9. Uruguay (has done zero)
> 10. Lula does not count (has done almost nothing)
> 11. Castro (multiple attempts at destruction US invasions and contras)
> 12. Arbenz Guatemala (destroyed by a US coup and contra invasion -
> subsequent regimes killed 200,000 people)
> 13. Dominican Republic 1964 (destroyed by a US coup and invasion - 100's
> were killed afterwards)
> 14. Grenada (destroyed by a US coup and invasion)
> 15. Populist regime in El Salvador 1980 (destroyed by a US coup -
> subsequent regimes killed 75,000 people)
> 16. Brazil 1964 (destroyed by a US coup)
>
> It has many
> > aspects of sitting in a line with the net at a tennis match, OR given that
> > these left and right wing dictators all seem to take sport at killing people
> > they suspect of being contras, it may be line one of those shooting
> > galleries at the arcade and the people are just the ducks that run by to be
> > shot.
>
> The number of killer leftwing regimes in the Americas is laughably
> small, and vastly outnumbered by the killer rightwing regimes. Outside
> of Cuba, the Left in power in the Americas has scarcely killed a soul.
> >
> > What Latin America NEEDS is a revolution that is neither right nor left
> > but really for the people! Novel idea, huh?
>
> Straw man...
>
> If it's not Left, it's NEVER pro-people, ever, anywhere on Earth, as a
> general rule.

You're both right...errrr, correct. The political pendulum swings left
and right, from one authoritarian philosophy to the next. The reason
lies in the fact that leaders relate their religions...political
platforms...with the economic giants of their countries. Either they're
radically against or for the status quo, all the while treating the
poor like miserbale step-children. The idea of "revolutions" are as
cliched as "terrorists" and "democracy", as demonstrated by the
recycling of old ideas with new guns. You know the saying, "the more
things change...", carries a lot of truth. The entire world needs a
revolution. But it's something we've never seen or dared to imagine. It
bothers me personally that "left" is associated with "people". This
insinuation is political propaganda if we really face the fact that any
ideology remains in the abstract without any viable actionable results.
The "left" is no better then the "middle" or "right" if nothing is done
for the greater good of the greater number of people.

As a Haitian, I am terribly annoyed by this talk between the
international nations that have self-appointed themselves morally
superior. Liberals and conservatives, right and left, dictator and
democratic institutions are meaningless. How do we explain these
abstract ideas to the majority of the worlds population that is
starving to death? Regardless if the poor and disenfranchised speak
spanish, english, french, portuguese or some local dialect, morality
has no right being hijacked by the few. "Systems" come and go but
humanity still festers in the decadence of civilizations gone awry. I
challenge everyone to begin thinking outside of the box by first
examining what it means to be a part of this world. Then keep it simple
and based to reality. In a nutshell, too many words get in the way so
push yourselves away from the keyboard, go out and make something
happen.

m. "The superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his
actions" Confucius
Bob
2006-01-02 22:11:34 UTC
Permalink
Gwo Mango wrote:
> Bob wrote:
>> KRP wrote:
>>> "Crusader" <***@xyx.com> wrote in message
>>> news:Fzmtf.85063$***@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>>>
>>>> While i dislike dictators of every sign,the sad truth is: to oust a left
>>>> wing conspiracy to obtain power or a left wing dictator you need a right
>>>> wing conspiracy or dictator,change the signs at your pleasure:)A democracy
>>>> will never be able to,it is too vulnerable a system of goverment,still
>>>> America is a democracy albeit we are slowy drifting away from it,the
>>>> danger
>>>> of totalitarism is getting too close for confort
>>> The trouble is, that that limited thinking is also used by the left.
>> You know, Ken, sometimes you are dumb as a rock about this stuff (like
>> 80% of the US population) and other times, like here, there are flashes
>> of epiphany.
>>
>> So
>>> what we can see in Latin America is an endless treadmill for the people of
>>> being shunted from a brutal right wing dictatorship to a brutal left wing
>>> dictatorship and back to a brutal right wing dictatorship.
>> In general, there have just been de facto rightwing dictatorships. Real
>> leftwing regimes in the Americas have been few and far between:
>>
>> 1. Aristide (destroyed by 2 US coups and a contra invasion - the
>> subsequent regimes killed 6,000 people in 4 years)
>> 2. Manley Jamaica 1978 (destroyed by US)
>> 3. Revolutionary Mexico (degenerated into parody)
>> 4. Chavez (multiple attempts at destruction by US coups and threats and
>> economic warfare)
>> 5. Peron (destroyed by a US coup in 1978 - the subsequent regime killed
>> 30,000 people)
>> 6. Bolivia 1952 (destroyed by US and the Right)
>> 7. Allende (destroyed by a US coup in 1973 which preceded US threats and
>> economic warfare - subsequent regime killed 15,000 people)
>> 8. Kirchner Argentina
>> 9. Uruguay (has done zero)
>> 10. Lula does not count (has done almost nothing)
>> 11. Castro (multiple attempts at destruction US invasions and contras)
>> 12. Arbenz Guatemala (destroyed by a US coup and contra invasion -
>> subsequent regimes killed 200,000 people)
>> 13. Dominican Republic 1964 (destroyed by a US coup and invasion - 100's
>> were killed afterwards)
>> 14. Grenada (destroyed by a US coup and invasion)
>> 15. Populist regime in El Salvador 1980 (destroyed by a US coup -
>> subsequent regimes killed 75,000 people)
>> 16. Brazil 1964 (destroyed by a US coup)
>>
>> It has many
>>> aspects of sitting in a line with the net at a tennis match, OR given that
>>> these left and right wing dictators all seem to take sport at killing people
>>> they suspect of being contras, it may be line one of those shooting
>>> galleries at the arcade and the people are just the ducks that run by to be
>>> shot.
>> The number of killer leftwing regimes in the Americas is laughably
>> small, and vastly outnumbered by the killer rightwing regimes. Outside
>> of Cuba, the Left in power in the Americas has scarcely killed a soul.
>>> What Latin America NEEDS is a revolution that is neither right nor left
>>> but really for the people! Novel idea, huh?
>> Straw man...
>>
>> If it's not Left, it's NEVER pro-people, ever, anywhere on Earth, as a
>> general rule.
>
> You're both right...errrr, correct. The political pendulum swings left
> and right, from one authoritarian philosophy to the next. The reason
> lies in the fact that leaders relate their religions...political
> platforms...with the economic giants of their countries. Either they're
> radically against or for the status quo, all the while treating the
> poor like miserbale step-children. The idea of "revolutions" are as
> cliched as "terrorists" and "democracy", as demonstrated by the
> recycling of old ideas with new guns. You know the saying, "the more
> things change...", carries a lot of truth. The entire world needs a
> revolution. But it's something we've never seen or dared to imagine. It
> bothers me personally that "left" is associated with "people".

The Right is for people too, but usually only for the minority that have
money, or for the business class in general. In Haiti, the Right, which
currently rules, represents approximately 8-12% of the population, all
of the rich and some of the middle classes. Who knows maybe even some
poor? But the Haitian Right is simply for the oligarchy of Haiti, which,
as noted, has the support of a mere 10% of the population. Whereas,
Lavalas was supported by 88-92% of the population. Clearly, Lavalas was
oriented towards trying to help the 90% poor than the 10% rich. In fact,
their policies were hostile to the 10%.

I agree "pro-ppl" is propaganda. What we mean is pro-masses or pro-poor
majority.

This
> insinuation is political propaganda if we really face the fact that any
> ideology remains in the abstract without any viable actionable results.
> The "left" is no better then the "middle" or "right" if nothing is done
> for the greater good of the greater number of people.

Well yeah, North Korea doesn't appear to be too "pro-people" at the moment.
Gwo Mango
2006-01-02 23:06:27 UTC
Permalink
Bob wrote:
> Gwo Mango wrote:
> > Bob wrote:

<snip>
> The Right is for people too, but usually only for the minority that have
> money, or for the business class in general. In Haiti, the Right, which
> currently rules, represents approximately 8-12% of the population, all
> of the rich and some of the middle classes. Who knows maybe even some
> poor? But the Haitian Right is simply for the oligarchy of Haiti, which,
> as noted, has the support of a mere 10% of the population. Whereas,
> Lavalas was supported by 88-92% of the population. Clearly, Lavalas was
> oriented towards trying to help the 90% poor than the 10% rich. In fact,
> their policies were hostile to the 10%.
>
> I agree "pro-ppl" is propaganda. What we mean is pro-masses or pro-poor
> majority.
>
The lumpen proletariat, as opposed to the "common" proletariat, is not
the strict property of any ideology. These are people with basic needs,
just as raw and naked as our ancestors from eons ago. The struggle
between politicians as to how best to lead a nation used to have far
greater direct impact on the lives of the greater majority whereas now
it really makes little difference. That's because the global economy,
the thing that actually gives real sustenance to people, is run by
business. Politics has become a farce, a theatrical performance, of
inept and non-qualified job seekers looking for position of power to
one degree or another. Most have good intentions from the get-go but
are quickly corrupted by the inability to move mountains by themselves.
And the few brilliant rock stars that actually garner the popularity
needed to move these old mountains usually don't have any clue as to
what dynamics truly are behind the status quo that they end up
unleashing a vicious backlash that unseats them. This is quite common
in the poorest of countries. The rest are simply spokespersons for the
big businesses. Gone are the leaders with both vision and sharp saavy
that can both maneuver through the troubles and set a clear course for
smooth sailing....most just want to push for mutiny or sacking the
galleys for loot.

As for Haiti, there is nothing that is clear except the dire poverty.
Lavalas, as a political movement, was really more like a mafia. The
only political vein that it truly had was that the majority believed in
its leader. They'd follow him off a cliff. Otherwise, Lavalas had no
inkling of an actual ideology or plan other than to retain power and
seek income from any nook or cranny imaginable...from top to bottom.
Not their fault really since the infrastructure for effecient
governance never existed in the frst place. And, like the mafia, it
became a machine that when beheaded kept on pounding the pavement but
without any direction.

The 10 percenters (which is really more like 2%) on the other hand have
not changed in 200 years.They are the mountains, well actually more
like roaches (lol!) because they have, do, and will continue to survive
under any conditions and with any leader in power. You see, the problem
lies in human needs. For example, we all need to eat. When a population
explodes and concentrates, autonomy is no longer an option and we
automatically depend on some sort of market system. Throw in some
rules, or not, and we have government. Draw some pretty maps and we
have a "nation". That's it. These conditions will never change, except
for the occasional re-drawing of maps, and those in position to control
the flow of basic needs is what is referred to as the "bourgoiesie". So
we can attach any label to which group of people work and which group
governs. And that's where politics stepped in and fucked everything up.
One day some guy decided his left hand was pro-masses and his right
hand was pro-money. Left would be "liberal" while right would be
"conservative". Ever since then he's been arm-wrestling himself to
death, hitting everyone in the face along the way...try explaining
right-wing to an orphan in Haiti who's starving to death, or left-wing.
And when you're done, he or she will simply ask you for food...or money
to buy food. It's in reality, that simple. Neither Democracy nor
Authoritarianism (for example) can feed people so I dismiss this notion
that either are pro-people. It's people, in any system, in any country,
that make the difference. Right, Left or whatever, it's the actions of
the people who live in the community that make the difference.

> This
> > insinuation is political propaganda if we really face the fact that any
> > ideology remains in the abstract without any viable actionable results.
> > The "left" is no better then the "middle" or "right" if nothing is done
> > for the greater good of the greater number of people.
>
> Well yeah, North Korea doesn't appear to be too "pro-people" at the moment.

I see America oddly mimicking North Korea. If we continue to
hysterically depend on our military for sustaining our way of life,
soon we will have no reason to live for we will simply be surviving.
It's a double-edged sword. And besides, the truth is there is no such
thing as the perfect system, ideology, or nation. We can only do the
best we can...but it's when we don't even try that it is most tragic.

m.
TORREBLANCA®
2006-01-03 18:47:43 UTC
Permalink
Gwo Mango ha escrito:

> Bob wrote:
> > Gwo Mango wrote:
> > > Bob wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > The Right is for people too, but usually only for the minority that have
> > money, or for the business class in general. In Haiti, the Right, which
> > currently rules, represents approximately 8-12% of the population, all
> > of the rich and some of the middle classes. Who knows maybe even some
> > poor? But the Haitian Right is simply for the oligarchy of Haiti, which,
> > as noted, has the support of a mere 10% of the population. Whereas,
> > Lavalas was supported by 88-92% of the population. Clearly, Lavalas was
> > oriented towards trying to help the 90% poor than the 10% rich. In fact,
> > their policies were hostile to the 10%.
> >
> > I agree "pro-ppl" is propaganda. What we mean is pro-masses or pro-poor
> > majority.
> >
> The lumpen proletariat, as opposed to the "common" proletariat, is not
> the strict property of any ideology. These are people with basic needs,
> just as raw and naked as our ancestors from eons ago. The struggle
> between politicians as to how best to lead a nation used to have far
> greater direct impact on the lives of the greater majority whereas now
> it really makes little difference. That's because the global economy,
> the thing that actually gives real sustenance to people, is run by
> business. Politics has become a farce, a theatrical performance, of
> inept and non-qualified job seekers looking for position of power to
> one degree or another. Most have good intentions from the get-go but
> are quickly corrupted by the inability to move mountains by themselves.
> And the few brilliant rock stars that actually garner the popularity
> needed to move these old mountains usually don't have any clue as to
> what dynamics truly are behind the status quo that they end up
> unleashing a vicious backlash that unseats them. This is quite common
> in the poorest of countries. The rest are simply spokespersons for the
> big businesses. Gone are the leaders with both vision and sharp saavy
> that can both maneuver through the troubles and set a clear course for
> smooth sailing....most just want to push for mutiny or sacking the
> galleys for loot.
>
> As for Haiti, there is nothing that is clear except the dire poverty.
> Lavalas, as a political movement, was really more like a mafia. The
> only political vein that it truly had was that the majority believed in
> its leader. They'd follow him off a cliff. Otherwise, Lavalas had no
> inkling of an actual ideology or plan other than to retain power and
> seek income from any nook or cranny imaginable...from top to bottom.
> Not their fault really since the infrastructure for effecient
> governance never existed in the frst place. And, like the mafia, it
> became a machine that when beheaded kept on pounding the pavement but
> without any direction.
>
> The 10 percenters (which is really more like 2%) on the other hand have
> not changed in 200 years.They are the mountains, well actually more
> like roaches (lol!) because they have, do, and will continue to survive
> under any conditions and with any leader in power. You see, the problem
> lies in human needs. For example, we all need to eat. When a population
> explodes and concentrates, autonomy is no longer an option and we
> automatically depend on some sort of market system. Throw in some
> rules, or not, and we have government. Draw some pretty maps and we
> have a "nation". That's it. These conditions will never change, except
> for the occasional re-drawing of maps, and those in position to control
> the flow of basic needs is what is referred to as the "bourgoiesie". So
> we can attach any label to which group of people work and which group
> governs. And that's where politics stepped in and fucked everything up.
> One day some guy decided his left hand was pro-masses and his right
> hand was pro-money. Left would be "liberal" while right would be
> "conservative". Ever since then he's been arm-wrestling himself to
> death, hitting everyone in the face along the way...try explaining
> right-wing to an orphan in Haiti who's starving to death, or left-wing.
> And when you're done, he or she will simply ask you for food...or money
> to buy food. It's in reality, that simple. Neither Democracy nor
> Authoritarianism (for example) can feed people so I dismiss this notion
> that either are pro-people. It's people, in any system, in any country,
> that make the difference. Right, Left or whatever, it's the actions of
> the people who live in the community that make the difference.
>
> > This
> > > insinuation is political propaganda if we really face the fact that any
> > > ideology remains in the abstract without any viable actionable results.
> > > The "left" is no better then the "middle" or "right" if nothing is done
> > > for the greater good of the greater number of people.
> >
> > Well yeah, North Korea doesn't appear to be too "pro-people" at the moment.
>
> I see America oddly mimicking North Korea. If we continue to
> hysterically depend on our military for sustaining our way of life,
> soon we will have no reason to live for we will simply be surviving.
> It's a double-edged sword. And besides, the truth is there is no such
> thing as the perfect system, ideology, or nation. We can only do the
> best we can...but it's when we don't even try that it is most tragic.
>
> m.

cuando sera que estos teoricos aterrizaran ? no se dan cuenta del daño
que le hacen a su propia nacion. comodamente sentados disfrutando de
las bondades del "imperialismo " y filosofando con la suerte de sus
congeneres, abandonados a su pauperrimo destino, forjado éste
precisamente por sus abuelos, padres y ellos mismos desde el palco
donde postean. que solucion ha propuesto el mango para su pais ? donde
esta el planteamiento en concreto para sacar a haiti hacia adelante. en
que consiste su historia para ayudar a la salud del pueblo haitiano ?
y a la educacion ? agricultura ? ayuda extranjera ? forjacion de
lideres ? nada, nadita de nada.

palabras, palabras, tan solo palabras.... y el rancho ardiendo.
Gwo Mango
2006-01-03 23:29:18 UTC
Permalink
TORREBLANCA® wrote:
> Gwo Mango ha escrito:
>
> > Bob wrote:
> > > Gwo Mango wrote:
> > > > Bob wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > > The Right is for people too, but usually only for the minority that have
> > > money, or for the business class in general. In Haiti, the Right, which
> > > currently rules, represents approximately 8-12% of the population, all
> > > of the rich and some of the middle classes. Who knows maybe even some
> > > poor? But the Haitian Right is simply for the oligarchy of Haiti, which,
> > > as noted, has the support of a mere 10% of the population. Whereas,
> > > Lavalas was supported by 88-92% of the population. Clearly, Lavalas was
> > > oriented towards trying to help the 90% poor than the 10% rich. In fact,
> > > their policies were hostile to the 10%.
> > >
> > > I agree "pro-ppl" is propaganda. What we mean is pro-masses or pro-poor
> > > majority.
> > >
> > The lumpen proletariat, as opposed to the "common" proletariat, is not
> > the strict property of any ideology. These are people with basic needs,
> > just as raw and naked as our ancestors from eons ago. The struggle
> > between politicians as to how best to lead a nation used to have far
> > greater direct impact on the lives of the greater majority whereas now
> > it really makes little difference. That's because the global economy,
> > the thing that actually gives real sustenance to people, is run by
> > business. Politics has become a farce, a theatrical performance, of
> > inept and non-qualified job seekers looking for position of power to
> > one degree or another. Most have good intentions from the get-go but
> > are quickly corrupted by the inability to move mountains by themselves.
> > And the few brilliant rock stars that actually garner the popularity
> > needed to move these old mountains usually don't have any clue as to
> > what dynamics truly are behind the status quo that they end up
> > unleashing a vicious backlash that unseats them. This is quite common
> > in the poorest of countries. The rest are simply spokespersons for the
> > big businesses. Gone are the leaders with both vision and sharp saavy
> > that can both maneuver through the troubles and set a clear course for
> > smooth sailing....most just want to push for mutiny or sacking the
> > galleys for loot.
> >
> > As for Haiti, there is nothing that is clear except the dire poverty.
> > Lavalas, as a political movement, was really more like a mafia. The
> > only political vein that it truly had was that the majority believed in
> > its leader. They'd follow him off a cliff. Otherwise, Lavalas had no
> > inkling of an actual ideology or plan other than to retain power and
> > seek income from any nook or cranny imaginable...from top to bottom.
> > Not their fault really since the infrastructure for effecient
> > governance never existed in the frst place. And, like the mafia, it
> > became a machine that when beheaded kept on pounding the pavement but
> > without any direction.
> >
> > The 10 percenters (which is really more like 2%) on the other hand have
> > not changed in 200 years.They are the mountains, well actually more
> > like roaches (lol!) because they have, do, and will continue to survive
> > under any conditions and with any leader in power. You see, the problem
> > lies in human needs. For example, we all need to eat. When a population
> > explodes and concentrates, autonomy is no longer an option and we
> > automatically depend on some sort of market system. Throw in some
> > rules, or not, and we have government. Draw some pretty maps and we
> > have a "nation". That's it. These conditions will never change, except
> > for the occasional re-drawing of maps, and those in position to control
> > the flow of basic needs is what is referred to as the "bourgoiesie". So
> > we can attach any label to which group of people work and which group
> > governs. And that's where politics stepped in and fucked everything up.
> > One day some guy decided his left hand was pro-masses and his right
> > hand was pro-money. Left would be "liberal" while right would be
> > "conservative". Ever since then he's been arm-wrestling himself to
> > death, hitting everyone in the face along the way...try explaining
> > right-wing to an orphan in Haiti who's starving to death, or left-wing.
> > And when you're done, he or she will simply ask you for food...or money
> > to buy food. It's in reality, that simple. Neither Democracy nor
> > Authoritarianism (for example) can feed people so I dismiss this notion
> > that either are pro-people. It's people, in any system, in any country,
> > that make the difference. Right, Left or whatever, it's the actions of
> > the people who live in the community that make the difference.
> >
> > > This
> > > > insinuation is political propaganda if we really face the fact that any
> > > > ideology remains in the abstract without any viable actionable results.
> > > > The "left" is no better then the "middle" or "right" if nothing is done
> > > > for the greater good of the greater number of people.
> > >
> > > Well yeah, North Korea doesn't appear to be too "pro-people" at the moment.
> >
> > I see America oddly mimicking North Korea. If we continue to
> > hysterically depend on our military for sustaining our way of life,
> > soon we will have no reason to live for we will simply be surviving.
> > It's a double-edged sword. And besides, the truth is there is no such
> > thing as the perfect system, ideology, or nation. We can only do the
> > best we can...but it's when we don't even try that it is most tragic.
> >
> > m.
>
> cuando sera que estos teoricos aterrizaran ? no se dan cuenta del daño
> que le hacen a su propia nacion. comodamente sentados disfrutando de
> las bondades del "imperialismo " y filosofando con la suerte de sus
> congeneres, abandonados a su pauperrimo destino, forjado éste
> precisamente por sus abuelos, padres y ellos mismos desde el palco
> donde postean. que solucion ha propuesto el mango para su pais ? donde
> esta el planteamiento en concreto para sacar a haiti hacia adelante. en
> que consiste su historia para ayudar a la salud del pueblo haitiano ?
> y a la educacion ? agricultura ? ayuda extranjera ? forjacion de
> lideres ? nada, nadita de nada.
>
> palabras, palabras, tan solo palabras.... y el rancho ardiendo.


The solution is for our leaders to face reality, put up trade barriers,
protect our markets, subsidize our farmers, invest in infrastructure,
maintain peace by putting people to work, and giving everyone total
access to education. Empower the people to create their own solutions
rather then being forced to depend on foreigners who hate us. But these
foreigners want our markets for themselves in this growing global
economy. So in the end, the poorest lose...as usual, then get blamed
for making the mess they were left to die in.

The early colonizers of St. Domingue wanted the slaves to be as
ignorant as possible so as to keep them from revolting. I say there is
no better way to improve things to let the people know exactly what's
going on through education, but right now Haitians are hungry...and as
Bob Marley sang truthfully and clearly: "a hungry man is an angry man!"

m. "we need to feed the people by letting them grow their food...no
other theories needed!"
Bob
2006-01-04 05:57:30 UTC
Permalink
Gwo Mango wrote:
> TORREBLANCA® wrote:
>> Gwo Mango ha escrito:
>>
>>> Bob wrote:
>>>> Gwo Mango wrote:
>>>>> Bob wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>> The Right is for people too, but usually only for the minority that have
>>>> money, or for the business class in general. In Haiti, the Right, which
>>>> currently rules, represents approximately 8-12% of the population, all
>>>> of the rich and some of the middle classes. Who knows maybe even some
>>>> poor? But the Haitian Right is simply for the oligarchy of Haiti, which,
>>>> as noted, has the support of a mere 10% of the population. Whereas,
>>>> Lavalas was supported by 88-92% of the population. Clearly, Lavalas was
>>>> oriented towards trying to help the 90% poor than the 10% rich. In fact,
>>>> their policies were hostile to the 10%.
>>>>
>>>> I agree "pro-ppl" is propaganda. What we mean is pro-masses or pro-poor
>>>> majority.
>>>>
>>> The lumpen proletariat, as opposed to the "common" proletariat, is not
>>> the strict property of any ideology. These are people with basic needs,
>>> just as raw and naked as our ancestors from eons ago. The struggle
>>> between politicians as to how best to lead a nation used to have far
>>> greater direct impact on the lives of the greater majority whereas now
>>> it really makes little difference. That's because the global economy,
>>> the thing that actually gives real sustenance to people, is run by
>>> business. Politics has become a farce, a theatrical performance, of
>>> inept and non-qualified job seekers looking for position of power to
>>> one degree or another. Most have good intentions from the get-go but
>>> are quickly corrupted by the inability to move mountains by themselves.
>>> And the few brilliant rock stars that actually garner the popularity
>>> needed to move these old mountains usually don't have any clue as to
>>> what dynamics truly are behind the status quo that they end up
>>> unleashing a vicious backlash that unseats them. This is quite common
>>> in the poorest of countries. The rest are simply spokespersons for the
>>> big businesses. Gone are the leaders with both vision and sharp saavy
>>> that can both maneuver through the troubles and set a clear course for
>>> smooth sailing....most just want to push for mutiny or sacking the
>>> galleys for loot.
>>>
>>> As for Haiti, there is nothing that is clear except the dire poverty.
>>> Lavalas, as a political movement, was really more like a mafia. The
>>> only political vein that it truly had was that the majority believed in
>>> its leader. They'd follow him off a cliff. Otherwise, Lavalas had no
>>> inkling of an actual ideology or plan other than to retain power and
>>> seek income from any nook or cranny imaginable...from top to bottom.
>>> Not their fault really since the infrastructure for effecient
>>> governance never existed in the frst place. And, like the mafia, it
>>> became a machine that when beheaded kept on pounding the pavement but
>>> without any direction.
>>>
>>> The 10 percenters (which is really more like 2%) on the other hand have
>>> not changed in 200 years.They are the mountains, well actually more
>>> like roaches (lol!) because they have, do, and will continue to survive
>>> under any conditions and with any leader in power. You see, the problem
>>> lies in human needs. For example, we all need to eat. When a population
>>> explodes and concentrates, autonomy is no longer an option and we
>>> automatically depend on some sort of market system. Throw in some
>>> rules, or not, and we have government. Draw some pretty maps and we
>>> have a "nation". That's it. These conditions will never change, except
>>> for the occasional re-drawing of maps, and those in position to control
>>> the flow of basic needs is what is referred to as the "bourgoiesie". So
>>> we can attach any label to which group of people work and which group
>>> governs. And that's where politics stepped in and fucked everything up.
>>> One day some guy decided his left hand was pro-masses and his right
>>> hand was pro-money. Left would be "liberal" while right would be
>>> "conservative". Ever since then he's been arm-wrestling himself to
>>> death, hitting everyone in the face along the way...try explaining
>>> right-wing to an orphan in Haiti who's starving to death, or left-wing.
>>> And when you're done, he or she will simply ask you for food...or money
>>> to buy food. It's in reality, that simple. Neither Democracy nor
>>> Authoritarianism (for example) can feed people so I dismiss this notion
>>> that either are pro-people. It's people, in any system, in any country,
>>> that make the difference. Right, Left or whatever, it's the actions of
>>> the people who live in the community that make the difference.
>>>
>>>> This
>>>>> insinuation is political propaganda if we really face the fact that any
>>>>> ideology remains in the abstract without any viable actionable results.
>>>>> The "left" is no better then the "middle" or "right" if nothing is done
>>>>> for the greater good of the greater number of people.
>>>> Well yeah, North Korea doesn't appear to be too "pro-people" at the moment.
>>> I see America oddly mimicking North Korea. If we continue to
>>> hysterically depend on our military for sustaining our way of life,
>>> soon we will have no reason to live for we will simply be surviving.
>>> It's a double-edged sword. And besides, the truth is there is no such
>>> thing as the perfect system, ideology, or nation. We can only do the
>>> best we can...but it's when we don't even try that it is most tragic.
>>>
>>> m.
>> cuando sera que estos teoricos aterrizaran ? no se dan cuenta del daño
>> que le hacen a su propia nacion. comodamente sentados disfrutando de
>> las bondades del "imperialismo " y filosofando con la suerte de sus
>> congeneres, abandonados a su pauperrimo destino, forjado éste
>> precisamente por sus abuelos, padres y ellos mismos desde el palco
>> donde postean. que solucion ha propuesto el mango para su pais ? donde
>> esta el planteamiento en concreto para sacar a haiti hacia adelante. en
>> que consiste su historia para ayudar a la salud del pueblo haitiano ?
>> y a la educacion ? agricultura ? ayuda extranjera ? forjacion de
>> lideres ? nada, nadita de nada.
>>
>> palabras, palabras, tan solo palabras.... y el rancho ardiendo.
>
>
> The solution is for our leaders to face reality, put up trade barriers,
> protect our markets, subsidize our farmers, invest in infrastructure,
> maintain peace by putting people to work, and giving everyone total
> access to education. Empower the people to create their own solutions
> rather then being forced to depend on foreigners who hate us.

Every *nationalist* in Latin America, or even anywhere on Earth in the
3rd World, who does this, gets called "Leftist", "Communist". "fascist",
"dictator", "mismanaging the economy", etc. no matter what their
political stripes. The new Iranian guy is pushing a line like this, and
he could be seen as a rightwinger in many ways.

But these
> foreigners want our markets for themselves in this growing global
> economy. So in the end, the poorest lose...as usual, then get blamed
> for making the mess they were left to die in.
>
> The early colonizers of St. Domingue wanted the slaves to be as
> ignorant as possible so as to keep them from revolting.

Interesting.

Hey, you ever read, "The Serpent and the Rainbow" by Ward Davis. Set in
Haiti. Wow, great book!

I say there is
> no better way to improve things to let the people know exactly what's
> going on through education, but right now Haitians are hungry...and as
> Bob Marley sang truthfully and clearly: "a hungry man is an angry man!"
>
> m. "we need to feed the people by letting them grow their food...no
> other theories needed!"

Everyone in Latin America who says this is called all of the names
above. In fact, for much of the Left down there, this has been pretty
much the agenda for some time now. I remember an interview with a leader
of FMLN in El Salvador and she said, "Right now, the Left in Latin
America is just trying to figure out a way to feed our own people". Real
basic agenda. Food.
Gwo Mango
2006-01-04 12:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Bob wrote:
> Gwo Mango wrote:
> > TORREBLANCA® wrote:
> >> Gwo Mango ha escrito:
> >>
> >>> Bob wrote:
> >>>> Gwo Mango wrote:
> >>>>> Bob wrote:
> >>> <snip>
> >>>> The Right is for people too, but usually only for the minority that have
> >>>> money, or for the business class in general. In Haiti, the Right, which
> >>>> currently rules, represents approximately 8-12% of the population, all
> >>>> of the rich and some of the middle classes. Who knows maybe even some
> >>>> poor? But the Haitian Right is simply for the oligarchy of Haiti, which,
> >>>> as noted, has the support of a mere 10% of the population. Whereas,
> >>>> Lavalas was supported by 88-92% of the population. Clearly, Lavalas was
> >>>> oriented towards trying to help the 90% poor than the 10% rich. In fact,
> >>>> their policies were hostile to the 10%.
> >>>>
> >>>> I agree "pro-ppl" is propaganda. What we mean is pro-masses or pro-poor
> >>>> majority.
> >>>>
> >>> The lumpen proletariat, as opposed to the "common" proletariat, is not
> >>> the strict property of any ideology. These are people with basic needs,
> >>> just as raw and naked as our ancestors from eons ago. The struggle
> >>> between politicians as to how best to lead a nation used to have far
> >>> greater direct impact on the lives of the greater majority whereas now
> >>> it really makes little difference. That's because the global economy,
> >>> the thing that actually gives real sustenance to people, is run by
> >>> business. Politics has become a farce, a theatrical performance, of
> >>> inept and non-qualified job seekers looking for position of power to
> >>> one degree or another. Most have good intentions from the get-go but
> >>> are quickly corrupted by the inability to move mountains by themselves.
> >>> And the few brilliant rock stars that actually garner the popularity
> >>> needed to move these old mountains usually don't have any clue as to
> >>> what dynamics truly are behind the status quo that they end up
> >>> unleashing a vicious backlash that unseats them. This is quite common
> >>> in the poorest of countries. The rest are simply spokespersons for the
> >>> big businesses. Gone are the leaders with both vision and sharp saavy
> >>> that can both maneuver through the troubles and set a clear course for
> >>> smooth sailing....most just want to push for mutiny or sacking the
> >>> galleys for loot.
> >>>
> >>> As for Haiti, there is nothing that is clear except the dire poverty.
> >>> Lavalas, as a political movement, was really more like a mafia. The
> >>> only political vein that it truly had was that the majority believed in
> >>> its leader. They'd follow him off a cliff. Otherwise, Lavalas had no
> >>> inkling of an actual ideology or plan other than to retain power and
> >>> seek income from any nook or cranny imaginable...from top to bottom.
> >>> Not their fault really since the infrastructure for effecient
> >>> governance never existed in the frst place. And, like the mafia, it
> >>> became a machine that when beheaded kept on pounding the pavement but
> >>> without any direction.
> >>>
> >>> The 10 percenters (which is really more like 2%) on the other hand have
> >>> not changed in 200 years.They are the mountains, well actually more
> >>> like roaches (lol!) because they have, do, and will continue to survive
> >>> under any conditions and with any leader in power. You see, the problem
> >>> lies in human needs. For example, we all need to eat. When a population
> >>> explodes and concentrates, autonomy is no longer an option and we
> >>> automatically depend on some sort of market system. Throw in some
> >>> rules, or not, and we have government. Draw some pretty maps and we
> >>> have a "nation". That's it. These conditions will never change, except
> >>> for the occasional re-drawing of maps, and those in position to control
> >>> the flow of basic needs is what is referred to as the "bourgoiesie". So
> >>> we can attach any label to which group of people work and which group
> >>> governs. And that's where politics stepped in and fucked everything up.
> >>> One day some guy decided his left hand was pro-masses and his right
> >>> hand was pro-money. Left would be "liberal" while right would be
> >>> "conservative". Ever since then he's been arm-wrestling himself to
> >>> death, hitting everyone in the face along the way...try explaining
> >>> right-wing to an orphan in Haiti who's starving to death, or left-wing.
> >>> And when you're done, he or she will simply ask you for food...or money
> >>> to buy food. It's in reality, that simple. Neither Democracy nor
> >>> Authoritarianism (for example) can feed people so I dismiss this notion
> >>> that either are pro-people. It's people, in any system, in any country,
> >>> that make the difference. Right, Left or whatever, it's the actions of
> >>> the people who live in the community that make the difference.
> >>>
> >>>> This
> >>>>> insinuation is political propaganda if we really face the fact that any
> >>>>> ideology remains in the abstract without any viable actionable results.
> >>>>> The "left" is no better then the "middle" or "right" if nothing is done
> >>>>> for the greater good of the greater number of people.
> >>>> Well yeah, North Korea doesn't appear to be too "pro-people" at the moment.
> >>> I see America oddly mimicking North Korea. If we continue to
> >>> hysterically depend on our military for sustaining our way of life,
> >>> soon we will have no reason to live for we will simply be surviving.
> >>> It's a double-edged sword. And besides, the truth is there is no such
> >>> thing as the perfect system, ideology, or nation. We can only do the
> >>> best we can...but it's when we don't even try that it is most tragic.
> >>>
> >>> m.
> >> cuando sera que estos teoricos aterrizaran ? no se dan cuenta del daño
> >> que le hacen a su propia nacion. comodamente sentados disfrutando de
> >> las bondades del "imperialismo " y filosofando con la suerte de sus
> >> congeneres, abandonados a su pauperrimo destino, forjado éste
> >> precisamente por sus abuelos, padres y ellos mismos desde el palco
> >> donde postean. que solucion ha propuesto el mango para su pais ? donde
> >> esta el planteamiento en concreto para sacar a haiti hacia adelante. en
> >> que consiste su historia para ayudar a la salud del pueblo haitiano ?
> >> y a la educacion ? agricultura ? ayuda extranjera ? forjacion de
> >> lideres ? nada, nadita de nada.
> >>
> >> palabras, palabras, tan solo palabras.... y el rancho ardiendo.
> >
> >
> > The solution is for our leaders to face reality, put up trade barriers,
> > protect our markets, subsidize our farmers, invest in infrastructure,
> > maintain peace by putting people to work, and giving everyone total
> > access to education. Empower the people to create their own solutions
> > rather then being forced to depend on foreigners who hate us.
>
> Every *nationalist* in Latin America, or even anywhere on Earth in the
> 3rd World, who does this, gets called "Leftist", "Communist". "fascist",
> "dictator", "mismanaging the economy", etc. no matter what their
> political stripes. The new Iranian guy is pushing a line like this, and
> he could be seen as a rightwinger in many ways.
>
> But these
> > foreigners want our markets for themselves in this growing global
> > economy. So in the end, the poorest lose...as usual, then get blamed
> > for making the mess they were left to die in.
> >
> > The early colonizers of St. Domingue wanted the slaves to be as
> > ignorant as possible so as to keep them from revolting.
>
> Interesting.
>
> Hey, you ever read, "The Serpent and the Rainbow" by Ward Davis. Set in
> Haiti. Wow, great book!
>

I saw the movie, it was pure invention. I often wonder if it was even
filmed in Haiti. None of the actors were Haitian and the overkill with
the vodou and movie visuals was a bit boring actually. You want a
agreat book that will blow you away? Read 'The Black Jacobins'. Your
life will change forever...

> I say there is
> > no better way to improve things to let the people know exactly what's
> > going on through education, but right now Haitians are hungry...and as
> > Bob Marley sang truthfully and clearly: "a hungry man is an angry man!"
> >
> > m. "we need to feed the people by letting them grow their food...no
> > other theories needed!"
>
> Everyone in Latin America who says this is called all of the names
> above. In fact, for much of the Left down there, this has been pretty
> much the agenda for some time now. I remember an interview with a leader
> of FMLN in El Salvador and she said, "Right now, the Left in Latin
> America is just trying to figure out a way to feed our own people". Real
> basic agenda. Food.

Again, the left is just a word. People are trying to figure out how to
feed their people. This is a human issue, not a political one.


m. "my two cents"
TORREBLANCA®
2006-01-04 15:01:16 UTC
Permalink
simply mango, all you need is .... MONEY, foreing aid, but to go to
DR to satisfy your need for food is not the solution, it only makes it
worse. An old saying state that a fully loaded stomach makes a happier
heart or " barriga jarta corazon contento " in spanish
( en dominicano ).

pero si ni siquiera ustedes mismos son capaces de ponerse de acuerdo en
la nacion para resolver los problemas, como creen que van a resolverlos
? ahora mismo acaban de aplazar las elecciones, indefinidadmente, con
un numero record de candidatos aspirando.
es mas, no tienen ni siquiera un plan decente para salir del abismo.
y ustedes los unicos pensantes que hay se largan del pais y lo
abandonan a su suerte solo para ponerse a llorar como jeremias frente
al muro de las lamentaciones, a llorar como niñas lo que no saben
defender como hombres decia balaguer ( former dominican president ).

ustedes tienen que dejar el lloriqueo internacional, deben de dejar a
un lado esa actitud amenazante, esos odios y resentimientos contra el
mundo, nadie es culpable de su mala suerte sino ustedes.
formen un bloque, eduquen, forjen lideres, conciten fondos, muestrenle
al mundo que pueden y el mundo les respondera. con ese lloriqueo de
comadres seguiran hundidos para siempre, pero sobre todo DEJEN LAS
AMENAZAS ustedes no son guapos nada, el mal comio no piensa, no
desperdicien el poco aliento que les queda .
Gwo Mango
2006-01-04 15:51:26 UTC
Permalink
TORREBLANCA® wrote:
> simply mango, all you need is .... MONEY, foreing aid, but to go to
> DR to satisfy your need for food is not the solution, it only makes it
> worse. An old saying state that a fully loaded stomach makes a happier
> heart or " barriga jarta corazon contento " in spanish
> ( en dominicano ).
>
> pero si ni siquiera ustedes mismos son capaces de ponerse de acuerdo en
> la nacion para resolver los problemas, como creen que van a resolverlos
> ? ahora mismo acaban de aplazar las elecciones, indefinidadmente, con
> un numero record de candidatos aspirando.
> es mas, no tienen ni siquiera un plan decente para salir del abismo.
> y ustedes los unicos pensantes que hay se largan del pais y lo
> abandonan a su suerte solo para ponerse a llorar como jeremias frente
> al muro de las lamentaciones, a llorar como niñas lo que no saben
> defender como hombres decia balaguer ( former dominican president ).
>
> ustedes tienen que dejar el lloriqueo internacional, deben de dejar a
> un lado esa actitud amenazante, esos odios y resentimientos contra el
> mundo, nadie es culpable de su mala suerte sino ustedes.
> formen un bloque, eduquen, forjen lideres, conciten fondos, muestrenle
> al mundo que pueden y el mundo les respondera. con ese lloriqueo de
> comadres seguiran hundidos para siempre, pero sobre todo DEJEN LAS
> AMENAZAS ustedes no son guapos nada, el mal comio no piensa, no
> desperdicien el poco aliento que les queda .

You obviouly don't know much about Haiti other than what impact we have
on your country. Haiti has received lots of foreign aid, has a huge
economy, but is still the poorest country in the western hemisphere; so
no, it's not MONEY that will solve Haiti's problems.

You're going off on a tangent mixing elections, number of candidates,
migration, education, plans and lots of comments about what you think
people *should* do.

It's just talk. Learn more about what caused the poverty then invent a
solution then make it happen. Otherwise, you might as well have never
said anything since the result is the same. That's my message.

m.
TORREBLANCA®
2006-01-04 16:45:22 UTC
Permalink
yo hago mas que ud señor mango. por lo menos ofrezco soluciones QUE YO
CREO deben de funcionar y funcinarian en caso de que alguien con
pantalones y cerebro en haiti lo haga.
que han hecho ustedes estos ultimos 202 años desde su independencia
que no sea llorar y llorar y lamentarse ?

la pobreza la causa la falta de educacion y la irresponsabilidad de
gente como usted que solo habla y habla y esparce su odio,
resentimientos y complejos.
Gwo Mango
2006-01-04 16:52:39 UTC
Permalink
TORREBLANCA® wrote:
> yo hago mas que ud señor mango. por lo menos ofrezco soluciones QUE YO
> CREO deben de funcionar y funcinarian en caso de que alguien con
> pantalones y cerebro en haiti lo haga.
> que han hecho ustedes estos ultimos 202 años desde su independencia
> que no sea llorar y llorar y lamentarse ?
>
> la pobreza la causa la falta de educacion y la irresponsabilidad de
> gente como usted que solo habla y habla y esparce su odio,
> resentimientos y complejos.

You are right. I will not disagree with you. And message stays the same
for you and everyone else, including myself. But please do not pretend
you know me, what I do or what my contributions are or are not. Those
assumptions do nothing. I don't know that you do more then I
do...abusing your Haitian laborers on your Dominican farms (what is it
that you actually grow? marijuana?) is hardly worth giving you a mdeal
of honor.

m.
TORREBLANCA®
2006-01-04 21:49:52 UTC
Permalink
Gwo Mango ha escrito:

> TORREBLANCA® wrote:
> >
> > la pobreza la causa la falta de educacion y la irresponsabilidad de
> > gente como usted que solo habla y habla y esparce su odio,
> > resentimientos y complejos.
>
> You are right. I will not disagree with you. And message stays the same
> for you and everyone else, including myself. But please do not pretend
> you know me, what I do or what my contributions are or are not. Those
> assumptions do nothing. I don't know that you do more then I
> do...abusing your Haitian laborers on your Dominican farms (what is it
> that you actually grow? marijuana?) is hardly worth giving you a mdeal
> of honor.
>
> m.

I am not talking about you, I do not give a damm about you mango, the
way you express yourself pitty it's only I can feel about you. I am
talking to people like you.
one more thing, If haitians workers are abused in the dominican
republic ask them to complaint to the propper authorities but they
should be aware of having handy their legal status in the territory
otherwise that kind of treatment is common to ALL ILEGALS around the
world, spain, USA, germany etc etc
Gwo Mango
2006-01-04 23:17:34 UTC
Permalink
TORREBLANCA® wrote:
> Gwo Mango ha escrito:
>
> > TORREBLANCA® wrote:
> > >
> > > la pobreza la causa la falta de educacion y la irresponsabilidad de
> > > gente como usted que solo habla y habla y esparce su odio,
> > > resentimientos y complejos.
> >
> > You are right. I will not disagree with you. And message stays the same
> > for you and everyone else, including myself. But please do not pretend
> > you know me, what I do or what my contributions are or are not. Those
> > assumptions do nothing. I don't know that you do more then I
> > do...abusing your Haitian laborers on your Dominican farms (what is it
> > that you actually grow? marijuana?) is hardly worth giving you a mdeal
> > of honor.
> >
> > m.
>
> I am not talking about you, I do not give a damm about you mango, the
> way you express yourself pitty it's only I can feel about you. I am
> talking to people like you.
> one more thing, If haitians workers are abused in the dominican
> republic ask them to complaint to the propper authorities but they
> should be aware of having handy their legal status in the territory
> otherwise that kind of treatment is common to ALL ILEGALS around the
> world, spain, USA, germany etc etc

We ALL know how Dominicans pity Haitians, so please keep your whining
to yourself. This kind of treatement is NOT found around tehe world.
Even as bad as the U.S. is we don't find common citizens chasing down
villages of poor Haitians and slaughtering them like cattle. And if you
are talking about people LIKE me then you are ALSO talking about me and
I already know you don't give a damn about anyone but yourself...so why
are you wasting my time?

m. "egoista"
Bob
2006-01-05 07:49:15 UTC
Permalink
Gwo Mango wrote:
> TORREBLANCA® wrote:
>> Gwo Mango ha escrito:
>>
>>> TORREBLANCA® wrote:
>>>> la pobreza la causa la falta de educacion y la irresponsabilidad de
>>>> gente como usted que solo habla y habla y esparce su odio,
>>>> resentimientos y complejos.
>>> You are right. I will not disagree with you. And message stays the same
>>> for you and everyone else, including myself. But please do not pretend
>>> you know me, what I do or what my contributions are or are not. Those
>>> assumptions do nothing. I don't know that you do more then I
>>> do...abusing your Haitian laborers on your Dominican farms (what is it
>>> that you actually grow? marijuana?) is hardly worth giving you a mdeal
>>> of honor.
>>>
>>> m.
>> I am not talking about you, I do not give a damm about you mango, the
>> way you express yourself pitty it's only I can feel about you. I am
>> talking to people like you.
>> one more thing, If haitians workers are abused in the dominican
>> republic ask them to complaint to the propper authorities but they
>> should be aware of having handy their legal status in the territory
>> otherwise that kind of treatment is common to ALL ILEGALS around the
>> world, spain, USA, germany etc etc

This is really bad. Your plantations need these Haitian (slave)
laborers, so DR allows to come in, all the while screaming "You are
illegals!" just so they will keep their heads down, and not complain
about their abusive treatment. As long as they are happy slaves, they
will not be deported. Helluva place, DR.
>
> We ALL know how Dominicans pity Haitians, so please keep your whining
> to yourself. This kind of treatement is NOT found around tehe world.
> Even as bad as the U.S. is we don't find common citizens chasing down
> villages of poor Haitians and slaughtering them like cattle.

What?! Is this what happens in the DR?
TORREBLANCA®
2006-01-05 12:49:06 UTC
Permalink
Bob ha escrito:

> Gwo Mango wrote:
> > TORREBLANCA® wrote:
> >> Gwo Mango ha escrito:
> >>
> >>> TORREBLANCA® wrote:
> >>>> la pobreza la causa la falta de educacion y la irresponsabilidad de
> >>>> gente como usted que solo habla y habla y esparce su odio,
> >>>> resentimientos y complejos.
> >>> You are right. I will not disagree with you. And message stays the same
> >>> for you and everyone else, including myself.

> >> one more thing, If haitians workers are abused in the dominican
> >> republic ask them to complaint to the propper authorities but they
> >> should be aware of having handy their legal status in the territory
> >> otherwise that kind of treatment is common to ALL ILEGALS around the
> >> world, spain, USA, germany etc etc
>
> This is really bad. Your plantations need these Haitian (slave)
> laborers, so DR allows to come in, all the while screaming "You are
> illegals!" just so they will keep their heads down, and not complain
> about their abusive treatment. As long as they are happy slaves, they
> will not be deported. Helluva place, DR.
> >
> > We ALL know how Dominicans pity Haitians, so please keep your whining
> > to yourself. This kind of treatement is NOT found around tehe world.
> > Even as bad as the U.S. is we don't find common citizens chasing down
> > villages of poor Haitians and slaughtering them like cattle.

why don't you tell the truth about this isolated case ? why don't you
tell the world that your people murdered one very loved person in this
village to steal his money and a furious mob went to the place the
murdered lived and burned their fragile 50 people roof ?
this was an regretable isolate case. it's all in the papers, you can
not lie anymore.

>
> What?! Is this what happens in the DR?

mango can you bring the papers or proof that state so. can you tell how
many haitians were killed last year by dominicans and tell how many
dominicans were killed by haitians as well ?. more than 1.5 millions of
haitians live ilegal in DR, not in the "plantations" but in whole
nation . 10 or 15 years ago when you were 1000 people in DR you could
talk about slavery but now you offer 200 pesos to a haitian for an hour
job and he would turn his head and leave.
Gwo Mango
2006-01-05 17:02:23 UTC
Permalink
In October 1937, Trujillo ordered the massacre of Haitians living in
the Dominican Republic in retaliation for the discovery and execution
by the Haitian government of his most valued covert agents in that
country. The Dominican army slaughtered as many as 20,000 largely
unarmed men, women, and children, mostly in border areas, but also in
the western Cibao.
A decade earlier, waves of Haitians had crossed into the Dominican
Republic to find work cutting cane on the vast sugar plantations, which
were pushing to export more and more to a market that paid over twenty
cents a pound for the sweet white stuff. But in 1929, Black Monday hit,
catapulting world markets into the Great Depression. Sugar fell to just
four cents a pound. With the market all but destroyed for Dominicans'
biggest export, Haitian workers were no longer needed.
By 1931, the Dominicans were already seeking ways to send the Haitians
packing. In July 1937, just three months before Trujillo's party at
Doña Isabela's in Dajabón, a new Dominican law forced foreigners to
register with migration officials. In late summer, Dominican
authorities deported eight thousand Haitians who had immigrated without
proper papers. But the deportations barely began to satisfy anger over
the country's economic straits.

--

August 16, 2005, Dominicans attack four young Haitian men in the
outskirts of Santo Domingo. Three of them were gagged, doused with
flammable liquid and then set ablaze, while one managed to escape. The
three suffering from burns later died in the burns unit of a hospital
in the capital.
The 24th August murder of four Haitians who were part of a group of six
trying to re-enter the Dominican Republic after having been deported to
Haiti, their country of origin. They had temporarily taken refuge in
banana fields in the Barahona region, and were chased, captured and
killed by guards in the small hours of the morning.
A series of murders reported by the Haitian AlterPresse news agency on
the 30th August: a foreigner presumed to be a Haitian found murdered in
Santiago, two others found dead following a dispute in Bavaro, and a 29
year-old Haitian, Bolivar François, found murdered, with his hands
tied, in Jarabacoa.
Also on 30th August, the Haitian NGO, Groupe d'Appui aux Réfugiés
et Rapatriés, reported that Delany Fleury, a 31-year old businessman
of Haitian origin, had been shot three times and died following an
arguement with a Dominican in Elias Pinas.

----

On Aug. 25, 2005, Dominican officials turned over the bodies of Haitian
nationals Gilbert Dominique, Willy Pierre and Paul Marc (whose name
is also given as Cinius Paul) to Haitian civil groups in a ceremony
on the border at Malpaso. The three young workers had been bound and
set on fire on Aug. 16 in Haina, near Santo Domingo (see our last
report http://www.ww4report.com/node/970 A fourth Haitian, Berlius
Pierre, was wounded with a machete but managed to escape before the
attackers could set him on fire. He said the attackers had asked for
money and then assaulted the Haitians when they didn't get it;
according to Pierre, one was wearing a Dominican police uniform and
carried a revolver.

At the ceremony, Sonia Pierre, a Dominican of Haitian descent who
heads the Haitian-Dominican Women's Movement (MUDHA), said that 24
Haitians had died in the Dominican Republic in suspicious
circumstances in the last two months. (AlterPresse, Aug. 26; El
Nacional, DR, Aug. 25 via AlterPresse; AHP http://www.ahphaiti.org/ ,
Aug. 24

---

On December 10, 2005, the Dominican Human Rights Commission asked the
Dominican government to investigate reports that at least 10 Haitians
had been killed during the previous week in the coffee-producing area
of Villa Trina, in the northern province of Espaillat. Local residents
reported the 10 deaths, saying the bodies were taken to unknown
locations. There are also reports that during an interrogation one
Dominican confessed to having murdered three Haitians. (El Diario-La
Prensa (NY) 12/11/05 from EFE)
The attacks on Haitian immigrants in the Villa Trina area began after a
group of men killed a Dominican money changer, Apolinar López
Rodríguez, with machetes the weekend of December 3; he had been trying
to collect a debt from a Haitian worker, according to Villa Trina
residents. The police reported that they had arrested at least seven
Haitians as part of their investigation into the murder. On December 5
mobs of Dominicans burned some 35 houses where Haitian immigrants
lived. The body of a 20-year old Haitian identified as Jean Pition was
found in the El Catey section of Villa Trina, about 15 kilometers from
the site of López Rodríguez's murder; like López Rodríguez, he
had been hacked to death with machetes.
On the night of December 5 three Dominican women-Luisa Patricia
Martínez, Nereyda Burgos and Altagracia Abreu-were wounded with
machetes in the community of Pontón, in the northern province of La
Vega. The attackers were **reportedly** Haitians, and the police were
investigating the possibility that this attack was connected to the
events in Villa Trina.

--

The Dominican authorities reportedly detained a number of Haitians for
their own protection, while dozens of Haitians were said to be hiding
in the mountains near Villa Trina. About 200 Haitian immigrants worked
on the coffee plantations in the region, making up about 90 percent of
the work force. "We're at the height of the harvest, and we're
afraid we're going to lose it completely because of a lack of
workers," José Ovalles, director of the National Coffee Council,
told the Associated Press on December 8. (El Nuevo Herald (Miami)
12/8/05 from AP)

--

As anti-Haitian sentiments reach critical levels, organizations suspect
that human rights violations are prevalent within Dominican deportation
policy.
For decades, right-wing politicians in the Dominican Republic have
periodically inflamed racial tensions between the people who inhabit
the two-nation island of Hispaniola. Every few years, the Dominican
Army is deployed to round up and deport thousands of Haitians who have
crossed the porous border in search of a living.

--

The troubles in this farm town in the country's northwest started in
late September, with allegations that a Dominican worker had been
killed by two black men. Too angry to wait for a trial, local
Dominicans armed themselves with machetes and went out for vengeance.
"Where there are two Haitians, kill one; where there are three
Haitians, kill two," said leaders of the mobs that descended on the
immigrants' camps, the Haitians here recalled. "But always let one go
so that he can run back to his country and tell them what happened."
TORREBLANCA®
2006-01-05 23:05:49 UTC
Permalink
de un millon y medio de haitianos que tenemos ilegalmente en nuestro
territorio usted trae como 30 casos de incidentes aislados de
violencia. que cree usted que los suyos son santos y no provocan ?
sepa que donde hay diferencia de raza, religion, costumbres y
comportamiento siempre hay recelos y resentimientos, es natural.

ademas no trae usted los casos en que dominicnanos son muertos a manos
de haitianos, que los hay y muchos, muchos mas de 30 o sea que no
aporta nada usted al tema, solo un copy&paste de historia que igual
puedo yo traer historia de cuando haiti invadio DR y la sometio hasta
que pudimos independizarnos. cuando el tirano trujillo vio una nueva
amenaza para la nacion dominicana, cuando no pudo a las buenas
repatriar los ilegales utilizo la fuerza, unhumano al fin pero con
buenos instintos naturales de supervivencia. yo haria a lo mismo para
edfender mi familia y mis tierras.

habla usted de historia señor mango, do you want me to speak about
history as well ?

I'll try to say it in my poor english so everyone can " enjoy it ". in
1822 when you General Dessalines devastated, burned the cities of Monte
Plata, La Vega, Cotuí, San Francisco de Macorís, San José de las
Matas and Montecristi ? in Moca and Santiago Dessalines tortured,
violated and tortured every single citizen. In Santiago Ms Maria Serra,
a mentally ill lady, was thrown to the river during night time. The
people were fooled taken to the church where they were decapitated and
desmembrados. Haitians repeated the scene also in Moca in the church
also decapitated and burbned alive the whole town. The priest Jose
Vázquez was burned alive in the entrails of the temple, in addition
the authorities of the City council were hung in a balcony of the Town
hall, to give testimony of a satanic cruelty .

you want to speak of history slaughters? there's more, a lot more.

The slaughter was so great that the population diminished of 125,000
inhabitants in 1797 (according to the historian martiniqueño Moreau de
Saint-Mery) to 63,000 inhabitants in 1819 (Census raised by the
Spaniards before the invasion of Boyer) (La Isla Al Reves. Joaquin
Balaguer, Pág. 103).

your people dominated cruelty our territory up to the year 1844 when a
bunch of heroes declared our independency. 22 years of abominable
domination because General Boyer wanted the island for himself. he
needed 150,000 francos in order to France recognize the independence
of haiti. our land was to be given to the oficcials in its army so
Boyer can consolidate as the man in charge for ever.
His idea was to eliminate all dominican race, religion, culture and
language. to fusion ( fusionar, to join ) the island as your slavery
liberator Toussaint Louverture always dreamed.Have you ever read about
the one of the most abominables crimes in our history Las Virgenes de
Galindo ( Galindo's virgins )? nó ? well is about time you begin to
understand the real need for the dominican nation to legalize EVERY
ilegal in its territory.
Should you need any more lessons regarding the close encounters between
our nations, just let me know, I'll be more than glad to point you out
mango.
Bob
2006-01-06 10:29:51 UTC
Permalink
TORREBLANCA® wrote:
>
> habla usted de historia señor mango, do you want me to speak about
> history as well ?
>
> I'll try to say it in my poor english so everyone can " enjoy it ". in
> 1822 when you General Dessalines devastated, burned the cities of Monte
> Plata, La Vega, Cotuí, San Francisco de Macorís, San José de las
> Matas and Montecristi ?

It was in 1804 no, was it not?

in Moca and Santiago Dessalines tortured,
> violated and tortured every single citizen.

They were all French. The adults deserved to be killed.

In Santiago Ms Maria Serra,
> a mentally ill lady, was thrown to the river during night time.

Well they could have left here alone.

The
> people were fooled taken to the church where they were decapitated and
> desmembrados.

These are slavers; they deserved it.

Haitians repeated the scene also in Moca in the church
> also decapitated and burbned alive the whole town.

Good, kill the French slavers; good idea.

The priest Jose
> Vázquez was burned alive in the entrails of the temple, in addition
> the authorities of the City council were hung in a balcony of the Town
> hall, to give testimony of a satanic cruelty .

He was French though.
>
> you want to speak of history slaughters? there's more, a lot more.

It was a good thing. Imperialists should do well to remember this. Look,
how the Hell are you going to get rid of slavery in Haiti at that time.
You must exterminate the slavers. It is the only way. Similarly, in
Europe there were uprisings in Poland against the feudal lords and
noblemen and their armies and even the Jews who allied with them. In
1600's, such an uprising killed 50,000 of these bloodsuckers. These
massacres are very good things. If you do not wish to get slaughtered,
then do not enslave other humans or force them into serfdom. Real simple.
>
> The slaughter was so great that the population diminished of 125,000
> inhabitants in 1797 (according to the historian martiniqueño Moreau de
> Saint-Mery) to 63,000 inhabitants in 1819 (Census raised by the
> Spaniards before the invasion of Boyer) (La Isla Al Reves. Joaquin
> Balaguer, Pág. 103).

These are all French, though, correct? Or no?
>
> your people dominated cruelty our territory up to the year 1844 when a
> bunch of heroes declared our independency. 22 years of abominable
> domination because General Boyer wanted the island for himself. he
> needed 150,000 francos in order to France recognize the independence
> of haiti.

Yes the French pigs smart over this loss to this very day, which is why
they presently are part of the imperialist coalition dictatorship that
oppresses the poor Haitian people.

our land was to be given to the oficcials in its army so
> Boyer can consolidate as the man in charge for ever.
> His idea was to eliminate all dominican race, religion, culture and
> language. to fusion ( fusionar, to join ) the island as your slavery
> liberator Toussaint Louverture always dreamed.

Well that is not acceptable. That is Haitian imperialism over DR.

Have you ever read about
> the one of the most abominables crimes in our history Las Virgenes de
> Galindo ( Galindo's virgins )? nó ?

What happened?

well is about time you begin to
> understand the real need for the dominican nation to legalize EVERY
> ilegal in its territory.
> Should you need any more lessons regarding the close encounters between
> our nations, just let me know, I'll be more than glad to point you out
> mango.

Thx for this history lesson. Pls elaborate.
Gwo Mango
2006-01-06 17:32:00 UTC
Permalink
TORREBLANCA® wrote:

> I'll try to say it in my poor english so everyone can " enjoy it ". in
> 1822 ...
>
> The slaughter was so great that the population diminished of 125,000
> inhabitants in 1797 ...

> your people dominated cruelty our territory up to the year 1844..

> language. to fusion ( fusionar, to join ) the island as your slavery
> liberator Toussaint Louverture always dreamed.Have you ever read about
> the one of the most abominables crimes in our history Las Virgenes de
> Galindo ( Galindo's virgins )? nó ? well is about time you begin to
> understand the real need for the dominican nation to legalize EVERY
> ilegal in its territory.
> Should you need any more lessons regarding the close encounters between
> our nations, just let me know, I'll be more than glad to point you out
> mango.

Not one lesson in modern history. Not one of your stories are in even
in the 20th century. So do your neighbors discuss these events from the
1800's while they are chopping the bodies of Haitians with their crude
machetes? I had no idea that any of these historical events had a
direct justification for slaughtering Haitians today.

Shall I give you a lesson in Haiti's history too? Are you even aware of
how slaves were treated? How they were taken from their homes in
Africa, separated from family, hudnereds of thousands died before
making it onto the overcrowded ships, to be squeezed into the bely of
these ships to sleep in their feces and urine with hardly any food or
water while sailing to the islands to then be chained, whipped and put
to work in the hot sun. The real disgusting thing was that it was black
people who were tortured while white people did the torturing and made
fortunes growing and exporting produce from the sweat and blodd of the
slaves. So in order to keep this system intact for so long, they
decided to create a system of terror. Any hint of rebellion would be
enough to violently send a message: the plantation owners would shove
explosives in the saves rectum and blow them up in front of the others.
They'd bury them to their necks and pour sugar in their heads, letting
them bake in the sun while ants crawled over their faces biting them,
they drew-and-quartered them (fourr horses tearing each limb off
running in opposite directions), they cut heads off and piked them for
public display, they burned people alive, hung them, stabbed them, shot
them ( which was considered merciful) and verbally abused constantly.
They were allowed just enought to eat to barely live because it was
cheaper to import a slave then to feed them. Hundreds of thousands
died. All to feed the fat rich owners of La Isla de Espanola...and
trade with their Europeen monarchies, feeding the powerful Empires: the
Spanish, the French, even the Portuguese. England was desperate to get
a piece of the action. And there was no distinction between west and
east, other then natural element of the high mountains and the far
better arable land of what is now La Plaine, northeast of
Port-au-Prince.

It was so terrible for the slaves, many commited suicide, poisoned
their children to keep them from being born into slavery, or
desperately tried to please the plantation owners. And the owners
developed a society of which to maintain the staus quo. They inherited
the Negro Code that made law the distinction of classes, down to the
smallest percentages of mullato-ness. The forbade property ownership,
education, and inter-relationships. In effect, the society was created
to maintain the flow of agricultural exploitation and the most
effecient means was through the most obvious: skin color. For nearly a
century, blacks were enslaved and were conditioned to inferiority and
forced labor. But the human spirit could not endure this gross inhuman
event forever...and for many decades the revolution gained strength
through a variety of events, conditions and heroic rebellions. The
political bullshit that nearly betrayed the freedom to the slaves
several times was never forgotten. So when the island gained its
independence, vengeance was only natural and it takes more thn one
generaion to forget such horrific system of life. In fact, we Haitians
have NEVER forgotten it. But you Dominicans have not only forgotten
your true roots, but have adopted the way of your colonizers, which is
fine.

But all the international associatians that banded together and islated
Haiti to its ruin to later return to exploit it again and again until
their ws nothing left is shameful for humanity. Now the world stand by
with their arms crossed, rocking their heads back and forth wondeing
why this poor black nation can't get it right. And worse, despite the
message of freedom we exported to the world, inclduing the Dominican
Republic, including the United States, Cuba, Jamaica, Bolivia,
Argentina, etc, etc...no one shows us any respect. And our nation is
imploding now.

In 2006, we import most of products from the United States and the
Dominican Republic. That means cah, money $$$ is going OUT of the
country while its people produce very, very little. So why dont we
produce? Because the United States and the Dominican Republic want to
SELL to us everything we need. The AID, the foreign money you, TORRE,
TELL US we NEED, comes with a very serious condition:

NO money unless you get rid of all import taxes. That means YOU sell us
goods cheaper then WE can make them. So, our poor are out of work. They
have no income. They cannot buy food, the same food they use to grow.
Rice and chicken is bought from the U.S. and the DR. Our government is
not allowed to tax these goods. If they do then they get no AID
$$$$...so what should they do? Meanwhile the people who watch their
children and wives die from HUNGER....die from not eating...start
killing each other. Many run. They go anywhere. The go to the DR,
Jamaica, Virgin islands, Bahamas, GUYANA, Puerto Rico, Cuba (yes they
dooo...) , Martinique, turks and Caicos, America, canada, Panama, Costa
Rica, Mexico, France, Belgium, and some even go to Africa...in search
of refuge. Not a solution but relief from the suffering that has been
brought about by the combination of so many factors, which probably the
most guilty, as agreed to by many, is our own rich and powerful for not
doing anything for the good of the country...despite all the obstacles
that worked against them. And I know this because I was born as a mixed
Haitian-American to a family that has lived well throughout the
centuries in Haiti and strangers consider me as one of the "morally
repugnant elite". I was raised in Haiti and experienced the privileged
life undue to me for being born in those circumstances. Now that I am
older and have my own conscience, I recognize the flaws in humanity, in
my people. We are a racist and selfish society, exclusive and
hierarchal and have no inkling of national pride. We are divided since
birth and have no means for healing this ravine of a class gap.
Aristide at first seemed to be the great black hope, and propelled the
idea of a free and modern society but soon fell victim to the
difficulties and shortcomings of our complex society, to put it nicely.
Now we are in a total state of disarray and I fear it's about to begin
to explode. 8 million (or more) angry, poor and desperate people who
have no confidence in its leadership, its upper class, its nation and
certainly not the foreigners who abuse, mistreat and kill their freinds
and families, hardly strikes me as a surprise that there is a problem
that is interfering in other people's national issues. I cannot and
wish not to defend Haitians "illegally" doing anything. But laws are
invented by man to create order. Laws change as you need them to
change.

Since the 1700's, Hispaniola wanted slaves to carry the economy. The
slaves destroyed that. So the foreigners have ignored and isolated the
slaves. Now the slaves have grown in population and become the
neighbors problems as well...and all our neighbros ignorantly think
this is a domestic or political issue. It is not. It's an internation
economic issue. It's a human issue. Unfortunately the truth is only
Haitians can fix this because we're the only ones who know what's
really going on.

m. "Better New Years to all...m'ale'..."
Bob
2006-01-07 10:39:01 UTC
Permalink
Gwo Mango wrote:
> TORREBLANCA® wrote:
>
>> I'll try to say it in my poor english so everyone can " enjoy it ". in
>> 1822 ...
>>
>> The slaughter was so great that the population diminished of 125,000
>> inhabitants in 1797 ...
>
>> your people dominated cruelty our territory up to the year 1844..
>
>> language. to fusion ( fusionar, to join ) the island as your slavery
>> liberator Toussaint Louverture always dreamed.Have you ever read about
>> the one of the most abominables crimes in our history Las Virgenes de
>> Galindo ( Galindo's virgins )? nó ? well is about time you begin to
>> understand the real need for the dominican nation to legalize EVERY
>> ilegal in its territory.
>> Should you need any more lessons regarding the close encounters between
>> our nations, just let me know, I'll be more than glad to point you out
>> mango.
>
> Not one lesson in modern history. Not one of your stories are in even
> in the 20th century. So do your neighbors discuss these events from the
> 1800's while they are chopping the bodies of Haitians with their crude
> machetes? I had no idea that any of these historical events had a
> direct justification for slaughtering Haitians today.
>
> Shall I give you a lesson in Haiti's history too? Are you even aware of
> how slaves were treated? How they were taken from their homes in
> Africa, separated from family, hudnereds of thousands died before
> making it onto the overcrowded ships, to be squeezed into the bely of
> these ships to sleep in their feces and urine with hardly any food or
> water while sailing to the islands to then be chained, whipped and put
> to work in the hot sun. The real disgusting thing was that it was black
> people who were tortured while white people did the torturing and made
> fortunes growing and exporting produce from the sweat and blodd of the
> slaves. So in order to keep this system intact for so long, they
> decided to create a system of terror. Any hint of rebellion would be
> enough to violently send a message: the plantation owners would shove
> explosives in the saves rectum and blow them up in front of the others.
> They'd bury them to their necks and pour sugar in their heads, letting
> them bake in the sun while ants crawled over their faces biting them,
> they drew-and-quartered them (fourr horses tearing each limb off
> running in opposite directions), they cut heads off and piked them for
> public display, they burned people alive, hung them, stabbed them, shot
> them ( which was considered merciful) and verbally abused constantly.
> They were allowed just enought to eat to barely live because it was
> cheaper to import a slave then to feed them. Hundreds of thousands
> died. All to feed the fat rich owners of La Isla de Espanola...and
> trade with their Europeen monarchies, feeding the powerful Empires: the
> Spanish, the French, even the Portuguese. England was desperate to get
> a piece of the action. And there was no distinction between west and
> east, other then natural element of the high mountains and the far
> better arable land of what is now La Plaine, northeast of
> Port-au-Prince.
>
> It was so terrible for the slaves, many commited suicide, poisoned
> their children to keep them from being born into slavery, or
> desperately tried to please the plantation owners. And the owners
> developed a society of which to maintain the staus quo. They inherited
> the Negro Code that made law the distinction of classes, down to the
> smallest percentages of mullato-ness. The forbade property ownership,
> education, and inter-relationships. In effect, the society was created
> to maintain the flow of agricultural exploitation and the most
> effecient means was through the most obvious: skin color. For nearly a
> century, blacks were enslaved and were conditioned to inferiority and
> forced labor. But the human spirit could not endure this gross inhuman
> event forever...and for many decades the revolution gained strength
> through a variety of events, conditions and heroic rebellions. The
> political bullshit that nearly betrayed the freedom to the slaves
> several times was never forgotten. So when the island gained its
> independence, vengeance was only natural and it takes more thn one
> generaion to forget such horrific system of life.

So who did they kill, Mango? All these atrocities he discusses by the
Haitian liberation fighters...who were they killing when they
slaughtered whole towns?

In fact, we Haitians
> have NEVER forgotten it. But you Dominicans have not only forgotten
> your true roots, but have adopted the way of your colonizers, which is
> fine.

I do not think it is fine, but I am starting to think you are right.
Clearly, Dominicans have identified with their colonizers and presently
wish to be colonized by imperialism, which they are. The question is,
WHY? Is it all because they hate Blacks so much, is that it?
>
> But all the international associatians that banded together and islated
> Haiti to its ruin to later return to exploit it again and again until
> their ws nothing left is shameful for humanity. Now the world stand by
> with their arms crossed, rocking their heads back and forth wondeing
> why this poor black nation can't get it right. And worse, despite the
> message of freedom we exported to the world, inclduing the Dominican
> Republic, including the United States, Cuba, Jamaica, Bolivia,
> Argentina, etc, etc...no one shows us any respect. And our nation is
> imploding now.
>
> In 2006, we import most of products from the United States and the
> Dominican Republic. That means cah, money $$$ is going OUT of the
> country while its people produce very, very little. So why dont we
> produce? Because the United States and the Dominican Republic want to
> SELL to us everything we need.

That's an essential aspect of imperialism, of course. Cf: dependency theory.

The AID, the foreign money you, TORRE,
> TELL US we NEED, comes with a very serious condition:
>
> NO money unless you get rid of all import taxes. That means YOU sell us
> goods cheaper then WE can make them.

Exactly.

So, our poor are out of work. They
> have no income. They cannot buy food, the same food they use to grow.
> Rice and chicken is bought from the U.S. and the DR. Our government is
> not allowed to tax these goods. If they do then they get no AID
> $$$$...so what should they do? Meanwhile the people who watch their
> children and wives die from HUNGER....die from not eating...start
> killing each other. Many run. They go anywhere. The go to the DR,
> Jamaica, Virgin islands, Bahamas, GUYANA, Puerto Rico, Cuba (yes they
> dooo...) , Martinique, turks and Caicos, America, canada, Panama, Costa
> Rica, Mexico, France, Belgium, and some even go to Africa...in search
> of refuge. Not a solution but relief from the suffering that has been
> brought about by the combination of so many factors, which probably the
> most guilty, as agreed to by many, is our own rich and powerful for not
> doing anything for the good of the country...despite all the obstacles
> that worked against them. And I know this because I was born as a mixed
> Haitian-American to a family that has lived well throughout the
> centuries in Haiti and strangers consider me as one of the "morally
> repugnant elite". I was raised in Haiti and experienced the privileged
> life undue to me for being born in those circumstances. Now that I am
> older and have my own conscience, I recognize the flaws in humanity, in
> my people. We are a racist and selfish society, exclusive and
> hierarchal and have no inkling of national pride. We are divided since
> birth and have no means for healing this ravine of a class gap.
> Aristide at first seemed to be the great black hope, and propelled the
> idea of a free and modern society but soon fell victim to the
> difficulties and shortcomings of our complex society, to put it nicely.

Really? He was only the most democratic president in the entire history
of Haiti. So a bunch of Tontons got necklaced while Aristide cheered? So
what! They should have necklaced more of them! How many Tontons are
there anyway? 10,000? Necklace them all!

Aristide built an airport. The elite have never developed the country
even 1%. The notion of Aristide as a dictator is a rank lie. The Haitian
elite and imperialism immediately started a contra insurgency as soon as
he took over, so Aristide, with no army and a police force controlled by
Tontons, had to use mob rule to fight the insurgency. There was violence
during Aristide's reign, but the vast majority of it was directed by the
CONTRAS, not be Aristide's people. Now that imperialism and Tontons did
their coup thing, they have reinstated Macoute terror and slaughtered
3,000 people in not even 2 years.

That is legions more than were killed by Aristide's ppl. Anyway, almost
all of those killed by Aristide's ppl were Tontons, or else conspired
with them. THEY ALL DESERVED TO BE KILLED! The only problem with
Aristide is, he did not kill enough of these fuckers. He should have
slaughtered them like sheep, and let the streets run with blood. Until
that happens, there will be no justice in Haiti.

> Now we are in a total state of disarray and I fear it's about to begin
> to explode. 8 million (or more)

Thx., I thought it was 5 million.

angry, poor and desperate people who
> have no confidence in its leadership, its upper class, its nation and
> certainly not the foreigners who abuse, mistreat and kill their freinds
> and families, hardly strikes me as a surprise that there is a problem
> that is interfering in other people's national issues. I cannot and
> wish not to defend Haitians "illegally" doing anything.

Why not? Do they not have a right to armed struggle against this fascist
coup regime?

But laws are
> invented by man to create order. Laws change as you need them to
> change.
>
> Since the 1700's, Hispaniola wanted slaves to carry the economy. The
> slaves destroyed that. So the foreigners have ignored and isolated the
> slaves. Now the slaves have grown in population and become the
> neighbors problems as well...and all our neighbros ignorantly think
> this is a domestic or political issue. It is not. It's an internation
> economic issue. It's a human issue. Unfortunately the truth is only
> Haitians can fix this because we're the only ones who know what's
> really going on.

Haiti as a failed state, infecting its neighbors...great post, man.
Bob
2006-01-05 07:45:22 UTC
Permalink
Gwo Mango wrote:
> TORREBLANCA® wrote:
>> yo hago mas que ud señor mango. por lo menos ofrezco soluciones QUE YO
>> CREO deben de funcionar y funcinarian en caso de que alguien con
>> pantalones y cerebro en haiti lo haga.
>> que han hecho ustedes estos ultimos 202 años desde su independencia
>> que no sea llorar y llorar y lamentarse ?
>>
>> la pobreza la causa la falta de educacion y la irresponsabilidad de
>> gente como usted que solo habla y habla y esparce su odio,
>> resentimientos y complejos.
>
> You are right. I will not disagree with you. And message stays the same
> for you and everyone else, including myself. But please do not pretend
> you know me, what I do or what my contributions are or are not. Those
> assumptions do nothing. I don't know that you do more then I
> do...abusing your Haitian laborers on your Dominican farms (what is it
> that you actually grow? marijuana?) is hardly worth giving you a mdeal
> of honor.

Thank you for pointing out the rank exploitation (near-slavery
conditions) of the BLACK Haitian cane cutters on MULATTO-WHITE Dominican
plantations. To say there is not a racial undercurrent beneath this
nonsense is to deny the obvious. I do not know why Dominicans put up
with these crap regimes.
annick
2006-01-06 16:44:53 UTC
Permalink
Message à tous les garçons
Dernièrement j'ai entendu une fille dire:
"Je ne veux pas d'un prince... charmant...je veux seulement un homme
charmant..."
Bob
2006-01-05 06:08:05 UTC
Permalink
Gwo Mango wrote:
> TORREBLANCA® wrote:
>> simply mango, all you need is .... MONEY, foreing aid, but to go to
>> DR to satisfy your need for food is not the solution, it only makes it
>> worse. An old saying state that a fully loaded stomach makes a happier
>> heart or " barriga jarta corazon contento " in spanish
>> ( en dominicano ).
>>
>> pero si ni siquiera ustedes mismos son capaces de ponerse de acuerdo en
>> la nacion para resolver los problemas, como creen que van a resolverlos
>> ? ahora mismo acaban de aplazar las elecciones, indefinidadmente, con
>> un numero record de candidatos aspirando.
>> es mas, no tienen ni siquiera un plan decente para salir del abismo.
>> y ustedes los unicos pensantes que hay se largan del pais y lo
>> abandonan a su suerte solo para ponerse a llorar como jeremias frente
>> al muro de las lamentaciones, a llorar como niñas lo que no saben
>> defender como hombres decia balaguer ( former dominican president ).
>>
>> ustedes tienen que dejar el lloriqueo internacional, deben de dejar a
>> un lado esa actitud amenazante, esos odios y resentimientos contra el
>> mundo, nadie es culpable de su mala suerte sino ustedes.
>> formen un bloque, eduquen, forjen lideres, conciten fondos, muestrenle
>> al mundo que pueden y el mundo les respondera. con ese lloriqueo de
>> comadres seguiran hundidos para siempre, pero sobre todo DEJEN LAS
>> AMENAZAS ustedes no son guapos nada, el mal comio no piensa, no
>> desperdicien el poco aliento que les queda .
>
> You obviouly don't know much about Haiti other than what impact we have
> on your country. Haiti has received lots of foreign aid, has a huge
> economy, but is still the poorest country in the western hemisphere; so
> no, it's not MONEY that will solve Haiti's problems.

Well theoretically, placed strategically, it can sure help!
>
> You're going off on a tangent mixing elections, number of candidates,
> migration, education, plans and lots of comments about what you think
> people *should* do.
>
> It's just talk. Learn more about what caused the poverty then invent a
> solution then make it happen.

Hell I dunno. Dessalines killed 20,000 white slavers in 1804 and then
the mulatto Uncle Tom slavedrivers who worked for the slavers took over
in 1820 and re-enslaved the people, as system that continues to this
day. A tiny mulatto elite of maybe 2% (the descendants of the mulatto
UNcle Tom slavedrivers) monopolizes the entire armed forces and economy
of the state, leaving the rest to die scrabbling for the scraps.

Furthermore, Haiti is owned outright by armed imperialism, not just US
but also deplorably Canadian and French. Presently the fascist regime
installed by the imperialists above is being kept in power by some
imperialist bootlicker fake "socialists" named Lula and Lagos and the
UN, which is now an armed collaborator with imperialism.
TORREBLANCA®
2006-01-11 18:28:16 UTC
Permalink
Bob ha escrito:

> Gwo Mango wrote:
> > TORREBLANCA® wrote:
> >> simply mango, all you need is .... MONEY, foreing aid, but to go to
> >> DR to satisfy your need for food is not the solution, it only makes it
> >> worse. An old saying state that a fully loaded stomach makes a happier
> >> heart or " barriga jarta corazon contento " in spanish
> >> ( en dominicano ).
> >>
> >> pero si ni siquiera ustedes mismos son capaces de ponerse de acuerdo en
> >> la nacion para resolver los problemas, como creen que van a resolverlos
> >> ? ahora mismo acaban de aplazar las elecciones, indefinidadmente, con
> >> un numero record de candidatos aspirando.
> >> es mas, no tienen ni siquiera un plan decente para salir del abismo.
> >> y ustedes los unicos pensantes que hay se largan del pais y lo
> >> abandonan a su suerte solo para ponerse a llorar como jeremias frente
> >> al muro de las lamentaciones, a llorar como niñas lo que no saben
> >> defender como hombres decia balaguer ( former dominican president ).
> >>
> >> ustedes tienen que dejar el lloriqueo internacional, deben de dejar a
> >> un lado esa actitud amenazante, esos odios y resentimientos contra el
> >> mundo, nadie es culpable de su mala suerte sino ustedes.
> >> formen un bloque, eduquen, forjen lideres, conciten fondos, muestrenle
> >> al mundo que pueden y el mundo les respondera. con ese lloriqueo de
> >> comadres seguiran hundidos para siempre, pero sobre todo DEJEN LAS
> >> AMENAZAS ustedes no son guapos nada, el mal comio no piensa, no
> >> desperdicien el poco aliento que les queda .
> >
> > You obviouly don't know much about Haiti other than what impact we have
> > on your country. Haiti has received lots of foreign aid, has a huge
> > economy, but is still the poorest country in the western hemisphere; so
> > no, it's not MONEY that will solve Haiti's problems.
>
> Well theoretically, placed strategically, it can sure help!
> >
> > You're going off on a tangent mixing elections, number of candidates,
> > migration, education, plans and lots of comments about what you think
> > people *should* do.

>
> Hell I dunno. Dessalines killed 20,000 white slavers in 1804

trujillo en su momento libero la parte occidental de la isla una
bandada de invasores que querian apoderarse de ella de nuevo para
volver a asesinar " 20,000 white slavers " en DR si a eso vamos.
que pendjo, acomodando la historia.



and then
> the mulatto Uncle Tom slavedrivers who worked for the slavers took over
> in 1820 and re-enslaved the people, as system that continues to this
> day. A tiny mulatto elite of maybe 2% (the descendants of the mulatto
> UNcle Tom slavedrivers) monopolizes the entire armed forces and economy
> of the state, leaving the rest to die scrabbling for the scraps.
>
> Furthermore, Haiti is owned outright by armed imperialism, not just US
> but also deplorably Canadian and French. Presently the fascist regime
> installed by the imperialists above is being kept in power by some
> imperialist bootlicker fake "socialists" named Lula and Lagos and the
> UN, which is now an armed collaborator with imperialism.
Bob
2006-01-05 05:37:11 UTC
Permalink
TORREBLANCA® wrote:
> simply mango, all you need is .... MONEY, foreing aid,

Yes we see how imperialism cut off Aristide, supported by 92% of the
population, from all foreign aid for such crimes as refusing to sell out
the nation's economy to imperialism, for raising the minimum wage, for
building an airport, for a lunch program, for building more schools in 8
years than his predecessors built in in 170 yrs (since the founding of
the republic in 1820 after the glorious slaughter of 20,000 White French
colons by Dessalines in 1804) and for making the most democratic society
in the history of Haiti.

but to go to
> DR to satisfy your need for food is not the solution, it only makes it
> worse.

The DR regime should be attacked, as they supported the Duvalierist contras.
Bob
2006-01-01 23:55:42 UTC
Permalink
KRP wrote:
> "Bob" <***@bob.org> wrote in message news:dp7p4e$b6j$***@pita.alt.net...
>
>>>>> While i dislike dictators of every sign,the sad truth is: to oust a
>>>>> left
>>>>> wing conspiracy to obtain power or a left wing dictator you need a
>>>>> right
>>>>> wing conspiracy or dictator,change the signs at your pleasure:)
>>>> That's the usual fascist - reactionary - feudalist - monarchist excuse
>>>> for their coups and contra rebellions.
>
>>> Bob it is a sad FACT of life in Latin America. The people are trapped
>>> on a wild ride on a pendulum.
>
>>>>> A democracy will never be able to,it is too vulnerable a system of
>>>>> goverment,
>
>>>> Really, didn't Ortega get voted out? And Peron?
>
>>> Ortega got run out.
>
>> I understand there was an election, no?
>
> Yeah like Ortega had a choice. The Contras had the Ortega boys by the
> balls.

Eh? They had one free and fair election, Ortega won. They had a second
free and fair election, Ortega won. I think they had a 3rd one and he
lost. It was also free and fair.

You are correct though. Start up a contra war to get rid of a popular
regime you don't like.
>
>>> Peron? Didn't he die?
>
>> His wife took over.
>
> Evita?

Yes.

There are Peronistas today.

Of course.

There is NO hope for Latin America
> until the people decide to get off the treadmill.

You do not understand Argentina at all, do you? The Peronist is the
average man, the regular guy. There are right, left and center
Peronists, who mostly hate each other. To be a Peronist is just a
normal, regular, Argentine thing. It's deeply ingrained in society and
it not going away within the foreseeable future. I would say, "All
Argentines are Peronists", but it's not totally true. There is truth in
it, but it is not completely accurate. Being a Peronist in Argentina is
like being for George Washington in the US.
Carlos Poli
2006-01-02 11:03:13 UTC
Permalink
The peronist is the black boy or guy, the bastard, the poor option of
Argentina.- Like the anticomunist former cubans of Miami ...
KRP
2006-01-02 14:33:38 UTC
Permalink
"Carlos Poli" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:***@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> The peronist is the black boy or guy, the bastard, the poor option of
> Argentina.- Like the anticomunist former cubans of Miami ...


I'm sure you have a point here. What is is, is lost with your inarticulate
post.
Want to try again?
Bob
2006-01-02 22:15:11 UTC
Permalink
KRP wrote:
> "Carlos Poli" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:***@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>> The peronist is the black boy or guy, the bastard, the poor option of
>> Argentina.- Like the anticomunist former cubans of Miami ...
>
>
> I'm sure you have a point here. What is is, is lost with your inarticulate
> post.
> Want to try again?

What he means is the Peronist = the shirtless ones. The discamisados.
The "average man on the street", to me, more than the poor, as Carlos
states. Also, many small businessmen, shop owners, and of course working
classes (members of trade unions) are also Peronists. Peronism is
totally confused as there are Left and Right Peronists. The only thing
constant is that Peronism is *populism*. Argentine populism. But the
presidential candidate of a Peronist party is often some attorney or
rich businessman. You can't understand Peronism without understanding
Argentina! It's like mate or tango.
CENTRO ANTICOMUNISTA
2006-01-02 22:35:22 UTC
Permalink
Aspirina para un cancer

SOCIEDAD
Aspirina para un cáncer

Alejandro Tur Valladares, Jagua Press

CIENFUEGOS, Cuba - Enero (www.cubanet.org) - El Noticiero Nacional de
Televisión dio a conocer que en los puertos marítimos de la República
Popular China se estaban embarcando las primeras locomotoras
diesel-eléctricas, que forman parte de un paquete mayor, contratado entre la
nación asiática y Cuba.

Según se aclaró en la nota informativa, estas locomotoras poseen ciertas
peculiaridades que las convierten en ideales para ser integradas al
depauperado sistema de transporte por ferrocarril que hemos padecido durante
décadas, debido fundamentalmente a la falta de mantenimiento de los equipos
y al deterioro de las vías férreas.

Entre las cualidades que se le atribuyen a las locomotoras chinas está el
bajo consumo de combustible, el poco tonelaje corporal, y la tecnología de
los paneles de mando, que les aportan gran operatividad y confort.

Sin lugar a dudas, la noticia resulta alentadora, pero cabría hacer un
análisis profundo que nos ayude a separar el grano de la paja, pues el
discurso triunfalista y apologista de los medios de información impide ver
los hechos sin que éstos sean distorsionados.

Vale la pena preguntarse cuál es el estado actual del parque de locomotoras
con que cuenta el país, en qué estado técnico se encuentra, y en qué grado
la compra de esta docena de vehículos solucionará el problema alarmante que
confronta el Ministerio de Transporte en esta esfera.

Luego de indagar sobre el tema, conocimos que la edad promedio de las
locomotoras que hoy circulan por los caminos de hierro de la nación rebasan
los 30 años de explotación, siendo el modelo 830P1975, de nacionalidad rusa,
la que más abunda.

Excedido el tiempo límite de explotación de esos equipos, las roturas suelen
ser frecuentes por lo que, para que permanezcan trabajando, el gobierno ha
montado en todo el país talleres dedicados a su reparación, logrando
mantener las locomotoras en movimiento.

Una vez que la URSS desapareció en la década de los 90, Cuba se vio
imposibilitada de adquirir las piezas de repuesto necesarias para dar
solución a las roturas. Por un lado, debido a la falta de dinero, y por el
otro, la privatización de las industrias que las producían, hecho que trajo
aparejado el cambio de tecnología caduca por una superior, incompatible con
la de nuestras viejas locomotoras.

Por ello, y para mantener un mínimo de servicios, se pasó al canibalismo de
aquellos vehículos que sufrieron desperfectos serios. Con las piezas de unos
se reparaban los otros. Así se han mantenido laborando, a costa de ir, poco
a poco, agotando su número.

Durante el llamado "período especial", la inventiva criolla aportó ciertas
soluciones, que si bien no fueron las ideales, al menos atenuaron la crisis
que padecía el sector.

A pesar del cuadro desalentador que observamos en el ramo del transporte
ferroviario, el régimen se empeña en dar la impresión de que con la entrada
en servicio de las locomotoras chinas, el problema quedará resuelto. Tan
agudo es el mal, que el efecto que cabe esperar es el mismo que tendría
suministrarle una aspirina a un enfermo de cáncer.

Será necesario, para revivir este servicio, algo más que consignas y
palabras. Se requerirá de una inversión multimillonaria para comprar
centenares de vagones y locomotoras, cambiar la totalidad de las vías
férreas, y mejorar las condiciones de vida de los obreros.

http://cubanet.org/CNews/y06/jan06/02a10.htm


[This message contained attachments]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:46:11 +0100
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Entre la espada y la pared

SOCIEDAD
Entre la espada y la pared

Alejandro Tur Valladares, Jagua Press

CIENFUEGOS, Cuba - Enero (www.cubanet.org) - Por mucho que busqué una mejor
expresión para describir la situación política que confronta el gobierno
cubano, no la encontré.

Decir que alguien está entre la espada y la pared es sinónimo de que se le
acabó el camino, pues se encontraba transitando por un callejón sin salida,
y que cualquier actitud que se asuma ante un problema planteado resultará
ineficaz; que ya no le quedan opciones para eludir el dilema que le afecta.

Esta es la posición en la que se encuentra la dirigencia cubana ante el
premio otorgado por el Parlamento Europeo a las ya famosas Damas de Blanco.

Nuestras emblemáticas mujeres son un producto natural, surgido de las
propias contradicciones y deficiencias del régimen. El grupo de las Damas de
Blanco surgió tras lo que considero el mayor error de cálculo de Fidel
Castro, cuando en marzo de 2003 desató una oleada represiva sin precedentes,
que llevó a 75 opositores pacíficos y periodistas independientes a las
cárceles, bajo cargos tan banales que organizaciones como Amnistía
Internacional y Reporteros sin Fronteras los han reconocido como prisioneros
de conciencia.

Desde entonces y hasta la fecha, semana tras semana, las Damas de Blanco
asisten a la iglesia de Santa Rita para orar por los suyos. Una vez
concluida la misa, las mujeres inician su peregrinar por Quinta Avenida para
pedir la liberación de sus seres queridos.

Durante décadas, varias generaciones de disidentes y opositores cubanos
buscaron infructuosamente fórmulas eficaces que contribuyesen a
desenmascarar a las autoridades de la Isla. No fue hasta ahora, con el
surgimiento de las Damas de Blanco, que el movimiento cívico dio en la
diana.

Al no asumir posiciones ideológicas o partidistas en la búsqueda de sus
propósitos libertarios, las mujeres atrajeron las simpatías y el
reconocimiento de sectores importantes del espectro político internacional,
incluida la izquierda democrática.

El apoyo de que han gozado las Damas de Blanco ha puesto fuera de juego la
tesis fidelista de que todo el que se le enfrenta lo hace subvencionado por
los Estados Unidos. Para ser más precisos, la Seguridad del Estado no ha
encontrado los modos de esgrimir su arma favorita: el asesinato moral.
Aparentemente, estas señoras son inmunes a la metodología tradicional de la
represión, utilizada por quienes han hecho del ejercicio de quebrar
voluntades y desvirtuar realidades, una especialidad académica.

Dividirlas no ha sido posible. Están unidas por el lazo indisoluble de la
solidaridad que surge entre quienes padecen por igual el sentimiento de
indefensión, común a quienes reclaman algún derecho donde impera la
autocracia. Hay demasiado dolor en sus corazones, demasiada experiencia y
conocimiento del monstruo para que se dejen chantajear o comprar.

Tan arruinada está la dirigencia comunista que acaba de cometer otra pifia
al no permitirles salir del país a recibir el premio Sajarov. Con la
negativa, la atención sobre estas mujeres ha adquirido otra magnitud. En
primer lugar, ha demostrado otra vez la naturaleza despótica del gobierno
cubano. Y en segundo lugar, promete presentar nuevos capítulos de
camaradería por parte de los europarlamentarios, ante la posibilidad de que
éstos viajen a la Isla a entregar el galardón a las Damas de Blanco.

Parece que quienes gobiernan en Cuba, cada vez que intentan deshacer el
hechizo de amor invocado por estas mujeres, se hunden más en el descrédito.
Y me convenzo de que para hacer comprender la situación exacta en que se
encuentra la administración castrista ante las Damas de Blanco, la expresión
más exacta es: entre la espada y la pared.

http://cubanet.org/CNews/y06/jan06/02a7.htm


[This message contained attachments]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:49:01 +0100
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Niegan asistencia medica a prisionero de conciencia

OLA REPRESIVA
Niegan asistencia médica a prisionero de conciencia

LA HABANA, Cuba - 30 de diciembre (Roberto Santana Rodríguez /
www.cubanet.org) - Yoenis Carrazana, guardia de la prisión Nieves Morejón,
ubicada en la provincia Sancti Spíritus, negó la posibilidad de brindar
asistencia médica al prisionero de conciencia Blas Giraldo Reyes Rodríguez,
del grupo de los 75, el pasado 24 de diciembre, según informó su esposa,
Isel de las Mercedes Acosta Obregón.

Según Isel de las Mercedes, su esposo, que es hipertenso, había solicitado
le fuera tomada la tensión arterial al presentar un fuerte dolor de cabeza,
fogaje en la cara y ruido en los oídos. Posteriormente, el enfermero del
penal, nombrado Manuel, también se negó a prestarle al recluso el servicio
médico. Blas Giraldo debió permanecer toda la mañana sin atención médica,
hasta que un sanitario le tomó la presión comprobando que se encontraba
alta.

"Estoy muy preocupada porque la presión alta es muy peligrosa", dijo la Dama
de Blanco, quien responsabilizó con lo que pudiera sucederle a su esposo al
guardia Carrazana y al enfermero Manuel.

Otro incidente relacionado con la salud de Blas Giraldo, calificado por la
Dama de Blanco como arbitrariedad, fue la retención de medicinas, vitaminas
E y B12, Acetaminofén e Ibuprofén, indicadas a Blas Giraldo por el médico
del penal el pasado 9 de diciembre después de la visita familiar. En el
hecho estuvo involucrado el primer teniente Montes.

Blas Giraldo Reyes Rodríguez, de 50 años y residente en Sancti Spíritus, es
gestor del proyecto Varela y director de la biblioteca independiente 20 de
mayo. Fue condenado a 25 años de prisión en abril de 2003.

http://cubanet.org/CNews/y06/jan06/02a1.htm


http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html

http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp
www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org

Corrupcion_en_Cuba
http://www.cadal.org/libros/pdf/Corrupcion_en_Cuba.pdf
http://www.martinoticias.com/media/audio/M-001_051004.wma
http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp
CENTRO ANTICOMUNISTA
2006-01-02 22:39:00 UTC
Permalink
SOCIEDAD

Alejandro Tur Valladares, Jagua Press

CIENFUEGOS, Cuba - Enero (www.cubanet.org) - El Noticiero Nacional de
Televisión dio a conocer que en los puertos marítimos de la República
Popular China se estaban embarcando las primeras locomotoras
diesel-eléctricas, que forman parte de un paquete mayor, contratado entre la
nación asiática y Cuba.

Según se aclaró en la nota informativa, estas locomotoras poseen ciertas
peculiaridades que las convierten en ideales para ser integradas al
depauperado sistema de transporte por ferrocarril que hemos padecido durante
décadas, debido fundamentalmente a la falta de mantenimiento de los equipos
y al deterioro de las vías férreas.

Entre las cualidades que se le atribuyen a las locomotoras chinas está el
bajo consumo de combustible, el poco tonelaje corporal, y la tecnología de
los paneles de mando, que les aportan gran operatividad y confort.

Sin lugar a dudas, la noticia resulta alentadora, pero cabría hacer un
análisis profundo que nos ayude a separar el grano de la paja, pues el
discurso triunfalista y apologista de los medios de información impide ver
los hechos sin que éstos sean distorsionados.

Vale la pena preguntarse cuál es el estado actual del parque de locomotoras
con que cuenta el país, en qué estado técnico se encuentra, y en qué grado
la compra de esta docena de vehículos solucionará el problema alarmante que
confronta el Ministerio de Transporte en esta esfera.

Luego de indagar sobre el tema, conocimos que la edad promedio de las
locomotoras que hoy circulan por los caminos de hierro de la nación rebasan
los 30 años de explotación, siendo el modelo 830P1975, de nacionalidad rusa,
la que más abunda.

Excedido el tiempo límite de explotación de esos equipos, las roturas suelen
ser frecuentes por lo que, para que permanezcan trabajando, el gobierno ha
montado en todo el país talleres dedicados a su reparación, logrando
mantener las locomotoras en movimiento.

Una vez que la URSS desapareció en la década de los 90, Cuba se vio
imposibilitada de adquirir las piezas de repuesto necesarias para dar
solución a las roturas. Por un lado, debido a la falta de dinero, y por el
otro, la privatización de las industrias que las producían, hecho que trajo
aparejado el cambio de tecnología caduca por una superior, incompatible con
la de nuestras viejas locomotoras.

Por ello, y para mantener un mínimo de servicios, se pasó al canibalismo de
aquellos vehículos que sufrieron desperfectos serios. Con las piezas de unos
se reparaban los otros. Así se han mantenido laborando, a costa de ir, poco
a poco, agotando su número.

Durante el llamado "período especial", la inventiva criolla aportó ciertas
soluciones, que si bien no fueron las ideales, al menos atenuaron la crisis
que padecía el sector.

A pesar del cuadro desalentador que observamos en el ramo del transporte
ferroviario, el régimen se empeña en dar la impresión de que con la entrada
en servicio de las locomotoras chinas, el problema quedará resuelto. Tan
agudo es el mal, que el efecto que cabe esperar es el mismo que tendría
suministrarle una aspirina a un enfermo de cáncer.

Será necesario, para revivir este servicio, algo más que consignas y
palabras. Se requerirá de una inversión multimillonaria para comprar
centenares de vagones y locomotoras, cambiar la totalidad de las vías
férreas, y mejorar las condiciones de vida de los obreros.

http://cubanet.org/CNews/y06/jan06/02a10.htm


[This message contained attachments]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:46:11 +0100
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Entre la espada y la pared

SOCIEDAD
Entre la espada y la pared

Alejandro Tur Valladares, Jagua Press

CIENFUEGOS, Cuba - Enero (www.cubanet.org) - Por mucho que busqué una mejor
expresión para describir la situación política que confronta el gobierno
cubano, no la encontré.

Decir que alguien está entre la espada y la pared es sinónimo de que se le
acabó el camino, pues se encontraba transitando por un callejón sin salida,
y que cualquier actitud que se asuma ante un problema planteado resultará
ineficaz; que ya no le quedan opciones para eludir el dilema que le afecta.

Esta es la posición en la que se encuentra la dirigencia cubana ante el
premio otorgado por el Parlamento Europeo a las ya famosas Damas de Blanco.

Nuestras emblemáticas mujeres son un producto natural, surgido de las
propias contradicciones y deficiencias del régimen. El grupo de las Damas de
Blanco surgió tras lo que considero el mayor error de cálculo de Fidel
Castro, cuando en marzo de 2003 desató una oleada represiva sin precedentes,
que llevó a 75 opositores pacíficos y periodistas independientes a las
cárceles, bajo cargos tan banales que organizaciones como Amnistía
Internacional y Reporteros sin Fronteras los han reconocido como prisioneros
de conciencia.

Desde entonces y hasta la fecha, semana tras semana, las Damas de Blanco
asisten a la iglesia de Santa Rita para orar por los suyos. Una vez
concluida la misa, las mujeres inician su peregrinar por Quinta Avenida para
pedir la liberación de sus seres queridos.

Durante décadas, varias generaciones de disidentes y opositores cubanos
buscaron infructuosamente fórmulas eficaces que contribuyesen a
desenmascarar a las autoridades de la Isla. No fue hasta ahora, con el
surgimiento de las Damas de Blanco, que el movimiento cívico dio en la
diana.

Al no asumir posiciones ideológicas o partidistas en la búsqueda de sus
propósitos libertarios, las mujeres atrajeron las simpatías y el
reconocimiento de sectores importantes del espectro político internacional,
incluida la izquierda democrática.

El apoyo de que han gozado las Damas de Blanco ha puesto fuera de juego la
tesis fidelista de que todo el que se le enfrenta lo hace subvencionado por
los Estados Unidos. Para ser más precisos, la Seguridad del Estado no ha
encontrado los modos de esgrimir su arma favorita: el asesinato moral.
Aparentemente, estas señoras son inmunes a la metodología tradicional de la
represión, utilizada por quienes han hecho del ejercicio de quebrar
voluntades y desvirtuar realidades, una especialidad académica.

Dividirlas no ha sido posible. Están unidas por el lazo indisoluble de la
solidaridad que surge entre quienes padecen por igual el sentimiento de
indefensión, común a quienes reclaman algún derecho donde impera la
autocracia. Hay demasiado dolor en sus corazones, demasiada experiencia y
conocimiento del monstruo para que se dejen chantajear o comprar.

Tan arruinada está la dirigencia comunista que acaba de cometer otra pifia
al no permitirles salir del país a recibir el premio Sajarov. Con la
negativa, la atención sobre estas mujeres ha adquirido otra magnitud. En
primer lugar, ha demostrado otra vez la naturaleza despótica del gobierno
cubano. Y en segundo lugar, promete presentar nuevos capítulos de
camaradería por parte de los europarlamentarios, ante la posibilidad de que
éstos viajen a la Isla a entregar el galardón a las Damas de Blanco.

Parece que quienes gobiernan en Cuba, cada vez que intentan deshacer el
hechizo de amor invocado por estas mujeres, se hunden más en el descrédito.
Y me convenzo de que para hacer comprender la situación exacta en que se
encuentra la administración castrista ante las Damas de Blanco, la expresión
más exacta es: entre la espada y la pared.

http://cubanet.org/CNews/y06/jan06/02a7.htm


[This message contained attachments]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:49:01 +0100
From: "PL" <***@pandora.be>
Subject: Niegan asistencia medica a prisionero de conciencia

OLA REPRESIVA
Niegan asistencia médica a prisionero de conciencia

LA HABANA, Cuba - 30 de diciembre (Roberto Santana Rodríguez /
www.cubanet.org) - Yoenis Carrazana, guardia de la prisión Nieves Morejón,
ubicada en la provincia Sancti Spíritus, negó la posibilidad de brindar
asistencia médica al prisionero de conciencia Blas Giraldo Reyes Rodríguez,
del grupo de los 75, el pasado 24 de diciembre, según informó su esposa,
Isel de las Mercedes Acosta Obregón.

Según Isel de las Mercedes, su esposo, que es hipertenso, había solicitado
le fuera tomada la tensión arterial al presentar un fuerte dolor de cabeza,
fogaje en la cara y ruido en los oídos. Posteriormente, el enfermero del
penal, nombrado Manuel, también se negó a prestarle al recluso el servicio
médico. Blas Giraldo debió permanecer toda la mañana sin atención médica,
hasta que un sanitario le tomó la presión comprobando que se encontraba
alta.

"Estoy muy preocupada porque la presión alta es muy peligrosa", dijo la Dama
de Blanco, quien responsabilizó con lo que pudiera sucederle a su esposo al
guardia Carrazana y al enfermero Manuel.

Otro incidente relacionado con la salud de Blas Giraldo, calificado por la
Dama de Blanco como arbitrariedad, fue la retención de medicinas, vitaminas
E y B12, Acetaminofén e Ibuprofén, indicadas a Blas Giraldo por el médico
del penal el pasado 9 de diciembre después de la visita familiar. En el
hecho estuvo involucrado el primer teniente Montes.

Blas Giraldo Reyes Rodríguez, de 50 años y residente en Sancti Spíritus, es
gestor del proyecto Varela y director de la biblioteca independiente 20 de
mayo. Fue condenado a 25 años de prisión en abril de 2003.

http://cubanet.org/CNews/y06/jan06/02a1.htm


http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html

http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp
www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org

Corrupcion_en_Cuba
http://www.cadal.org/libros/pdf/Corrupcion_en_Cuba.pdf
http://www.martinoticias.com/media/audio/M-001_051004.wma
http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp
CENTRO ANTICOMUNISTA
2006-01-02 22:39:56 UTC
Permalink
El nacionalismo radical cubano: La soberbia armada (II)

HISTORIA
El nacionalismo radical cubano: La soberbia armada (II)

Raúl Soroa

LA HABANA, Cuba - Enero (www.cubanet.org) - Durante la república 1902-1958,
el sistema de ideas y conceptos liberales de la patria fue desafiado en
varias ocasiones por el nacionalismo radical. Los conceptos sobre la
necesidad de una transformación social entraron en pugna con las ideas
liberales. En 1933, la soberbia radical revolucionaria se encarna en la
figura del revolucionario metralleta en mano imponiendo leyes y reformas.
"Hay que cambiar la sociedad" es el grito.

En aquellos años se produjo un cambio sustancial en la manera de pensar de
los cubanos, que comienzan a considerar que los problemas que atravesaba el
país eran consecuencia no de la escasa producción de riquezas, sino de su
injusta distribución. La influencia de las ideas comunistas, la estadolatría
del totalitarismo, hizo creer a muchas personas en el mundo -y Cuba no
escapó a ese influjo- que el desarrollo económico y la justicia social eran
asunto del Estado, encargado de la distribución equitativa de la riqueza
nacional.

La pobreza pasó a ser culpa de los ricos que desposeían a los pobres de lo
que por derecho les correspondía. Según esta forma de pensar, la riqueza es
algo estático, algo para ser distribuido entre todos por igual, algo
abstracto, tan abstracto como el concepto mismo del Estado como fuente única
de bienestar, que crea riquezas por obra y gracia de su existencia. Para la
nueva generación de protagonismo emergente, para los nuevos partidos y
organizaciones surgidas de la lucha contra Machado, en mayor o menor medida
la llegada al poder se convirtió no en medio para administrar el bien común
de acuerdo a las leyes, sino en mecanismo para distribuir equitativamente la
riqueza y administrar la justicia social.

Los Generales y Doctores salidos de la Guerra de Independencia ceden su
lugar a un nuevo modelo político, el "revolucionario", hombre dotado de
virtudes especiales, poseedor de la convicción de que la distribución
equitativa de la riqueza, de los bienes y servicios, se impone verticalmente
desde el poder, a través de órdenes decretadas por esos individuos o mejor
por un individuo de corazón noble, desprendido, persona de gran valor
personal, capaz de todo para hacer cumplir su misión histórica a favor de
los desposeídos.

Esta estadolatría situaba a los Estados Unidos como el gran culpable de los
males de Cuba, como máximo representante del capital. Los comunistas
llegaban más lejos, al negar además la democracia, pero abecedarios,
auténticos, etc., incorporaron a sus programas la idea de que el Estado
controlado por los revolucionarios era la fórmula para solucionar los
problemas de Cuba.

Esta nueva clase política, emergida y santificada por la lucha contra
Machado, actúa convencida de que lo hacen en beneficio del pueblo. Batista
es visto por el pueblo como el hombre humilde, mestizo, progresista -él se
consideraba a sí mismo un progresista, y así lo consideran muchas personas.
Las leyes que dictan estos hombres entorpecen el libre funcionamiento del
mercado, pero la sociedad no se percata, celebra a sus líderes, es parte de
esa mentalidad revolucionaria.

Durante la década de 1950 Cuba se encontraba entre los cinco primeros países
de América, y hacía gala de favorables índices socioeconómicos en
urbanización, alfabetización, ingresos individuales, mortalidad infantil y
esperanza de vida acordes con los índices de la época. La sociedad cubana
era una sociedad de clase media. Existía desigualdad entre la ciudad y el
campo, y se imponía diversificar la economía.

Veinte años después de 1933 y de la abolición de la Enmienda Platt, el
sistema político cubano no había terminado de madurar. Se realizaban
elecciones regularmente con aceptable honestidad, pero algunos casos de
corrupción severamente criticados por la oposición y utilizados por la
ortodoxia en su campaña política en pos del poder empañaban la credibilidad
de los gobernantes, y afectaban el ejercicio del gobierno.

Lo único necesario era lograr el despegue definitivo de la economía
nacional, realizar una reforma política que restaurara el gobierno
constitucional y redujera la corrupción administrativa. Estos fueron los
ideales que llevaron a los sectores medios a la lucha contra Batista. La
supresión del capitalismo nunca estuvo entre los objetivos del movimiento
anti batistiano.

La visión del pasado que se impone en Cuba es la visión del nacionalismo
radical, por lo que la Revolución es el cumplimiento de una especie de
destino sagrado. Olvidando las alternativas posibles que se encontraban
presentes en los años 50 en la sociedad cubana, el radicalismo radical guía
los pasos de los rebeldes triunfantes a lo largo de 1959. La soberbia armada
triunfa sobre cualquier otro sentimiento institucionalizador democrático.

La dinámica Fidel-patria-revolución se convierte en eje de la política
cubana. Un grupo de reformas que satisfacen algunas demandas de los sectores
más pobres logra movilizar a esas fuerzas alrededor del proyecto radical.

Fidel opta por alentar y atraer a las clases más pobres y enfrentarlas a los
industriales y a la clase media, que habían sido sus aliados durante la
lucha y en los inicios de 1959. Para consolidarse en el poder, sale a la
búsqueda de nuevos aliados internacionales. Escoge el camino de la
confrontación con Estados Unidos como vía para satisfacer al nacionalismo
radical que encarna en su persona y el orgullo que llevaba implícito.

En 1959 un ilimitado sentimiento de orgullo nacional se apoderó de muchos
cubanos. El triunfo rebelde se presentó como el triunfo del espíritu
revolucionario centenario, y Fidel se presenta como Mesías salvador,
personificación de esa figura presente en el sentimiento nacional, admirada
y añorada del revolucionario. Es el viejo caudillo armado de esencia
revolucionaria y legitimado por la fuerza.

Al ser la lucha armada la que derriba a Batista y no un proceso negociador,
las instituciones se debilitaron aún más. Las fuerzas que podían haber
contenido a la Revolución se encontraban debilitadas.

Los años sesenta constituyen el período de entronización de esas fuerzas
encabezadas por el caudillo, proceso que avanza por etapas. 1968 y la
Ofensiva Revolucionaria significan el último capítulo de ruptura con los
antiguos aliados. En ese momento le llega el turno a los timbiriches y a los
restos de la pequeña burguesía. 1976 es la santificación legislativa del
radicalismo nacionalista, su institucionalización. 2002 queda marcado como
el año de su éxtasis, el punto más álgido del espasmo radical, una especie
de orgasmo político que le lleva a proclamarse eterno y hacerse ley
inmutable.

"Cuba es un eterno Baraguá", esa frase que escuchamos hasta el cansancio
todos los cubanos desde las aulas hasta los medios masivos de comunicación,
esa frase de discurso y pancarta, es expresión de ese nacionalismo radical
en el poder, de su intransigencia.

Más de 40 años debían habernos enseñado a los cubanos que ése no es el
camino, pero hoy las fuerzas civilistas encuentran la incomprensión de un
pueblo que perdió su camino. La soberbia armada sigue en el poder, y los
escasos y divididos representantes de la civilidad son perseguidos,
golpeados, encarcelados, denunciados, encarnecidos sin misericordia. En
medio de una sociedad que guarda silencio cómplice, la soberbia golpea,
ultraja, insulta de la mano de los fascistas de las brigadas de acción
rápida, y la gente prefiere cerrar las ventanas y los ojos. Nadie hace nada.
Nadie sale en defensa de los agredidos. Nadie les protege de las piedras,
para vergüenza nuestra de hoy y de mañana.

Los que enarbolan las banderas del civilismo en medio de la desconfianza son
la esperanza de Cuba. Ellos encarnan nuestra última estación frente a la
soberbia armada del radicalismo nacionalista. Hay que abrir los ojos y las
puertas.

El radicalismo nacionalista se extiende por las fértiles tierras de
Latinoamérica, donde encuentra terreno abonado y virgen. Se exalta a Hugo
Chávez y se olvida a Lagos conduciendo ejemplarmente a Chile por los caminos
del progreso.

Esperemos que en Cuba se impongan un día las ideas civilistas, que el
diálogo triunfe sobre la cultura de la intransigencia, que el paradigma deje
de ser el caudillo que derrota al enemigo y sea el hombre que conversa, que
dialoga; que la fuerza apreciada sea la de la mente, la de la inteligencia.
Que Cuba deje de ser, al fin, un eterno Baraguá.

http://cubanet.org/CNews/y06/jan06/02a6.htm


http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html

http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp
www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org

Corrupcion_en_Cuba
http://www.cadal.org/libros/pdf/Corrupcion_en_Cuba.pdf
http://www.martinoticias.com/media/audio/M-001_051004.wma
http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp

"CENTRO ANTICOMUNISTA" <***@Escambray.cu
KRP
2006-01-03 13:56:33 UTC
Permalink
"Bob" <***@bob.org> wrote in message news:dpc8fu$3s5$***@pita.alt.net...

>> "Carlos Poli" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:***@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> The peronist is the black boy or guy, the bastard, the poor option of
>>> Argentina.- Like the anticomunist former cubans of Miami ...
>>
>>
>> I'm sure you have a point here. What it is, is lost with your
>> inarticulate post.
>> Want to try again?
>
> What he means is the Peronist = the shirtless ones. The discamisados. The
> "average man on the street", to me, more than the poor, as Carlos states.
> Also, many small businessmen, shop owners, and of course working classes
> (members of trade unions) are also Peronists. Peronism is totally confused
> as there are Left and Right Peronists. The only thing constant is that
> Peronism is *populism*. Argentine populism. But the presidential candidate
> of a Peronist party is often some attorney or rich businessman. You can't
> understand Peronism without understanding Argentina! It's like mate or
> tango.

Juan Peron was a dictator, A right wing nut case. who "adored" Adolph
Hitler. I understand Argentina. Beautiful women, and then men like Che
Guevara.
Bob
2006-01-03 22:01:01 UTC
Permalink
KRP wrote:
> "Bob" <***@bob.org> wrote in message news:dpc8fu$3s5$***@pita.alt.net...
>
>>> "Carlos Poli" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:***@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>> The peronist is the black boy or guy, the bastard, the poor option of
>>>> Argentina.- Like the anticomunist former cubans of Miami ...
>>>
>>> I'm sure you have a point here. What it is, is lost with your
>>> inarticulate post.
>>> Want to try again?
>> What he means is the Peronist = the shirtless ones. The discamisados. The
>> "average man on the street", to me, more than the poor, as Carlos states.
>> Also, many small businessmen, shop owners, and of course working classes
>> (members of trade unions) are also Peronists. Peronism is totally confused
>> as there are Left and Right Peronists. The only thing constant is that
>> Peronism is *populism*. Argentine populism. But the presidential candidate
>> of a Peronist party is often some attorney or rich businessman. You can't
>> understand Peronism without understanding Argentina! It's like mate or
>> tango.
>
> Juan Peron was a dictator, A right wing nut case.

Actually, he is considered to be a leftwinger, at least at the start.
And most critics do not consider him to be a fascist.

who "adored" Adolph
> Hitler.

News to me.

I understand Argentina.

I do not think so. You don't even understand Peron or Peronism. How
could you possibly understand Argentina, che?

Beautiful women, and then men like Che
> Guevara.

You know nothing of that place, che.
CENTRO ANTICOMUNISTA
2006-01-02 23:09:49 UTC
Permalink
OLA REPRESIVA
Niegan asistencia médica a prisionero de conciencia

LA HABANA, Cuba - 30 de diciembre (Roberto Santana Rodríguez /
www.cubanet.org) - Yoenis Carrazana, guardia de la prisión Nieves Morejón,
ubicada en la provincia Sancti Spíritus, negó la posibilidad de brindar
asistencia médica al prisionero de conciencia Blas Giraldo Reyes Rodríguez,
del grupo de los 75, el pasado 24 de diciembre, según informó su esposa,
Isel de las Mercedes Acosta Obregón.

Según Isel de las Mercedes, su esposo, que es hipertenso, había solicitado
le fuera tomada la tensión arterial al presentar un fuerte dolor de cabeza,
fogaje en la cara y ruido en los oídos. Posteriormente, el enfermero del
penal, nombrado Manuel, también se negó a prestarle al recluso el servicio
médico. Blas Giraldo debió permanecer toda la mañana sin atención médica,
hasta que un sanitario le tomó la presión comprobando que se encontraba
alta.

"Estoy muy preocupada porque la presión alta es muy peligrosa", dijo la Dama
de Blanco, quien responsabilizó con lo que pudiera sucederle a su esposo al
guardia Carrazana y al enfermero Manuel.

Otro incidente relacionado con la salud de Blas Giraldo, calificado por la
Dama de Blanco como arbitrariedad, fue la retención de medicinas, vitaminas
E y B12, Acetaminofén e Ibuprofén, indicadas a Blas Giraldo por el médico
del penal el pasado 9 de diciembre después de la visita familiar. En el
hecho estuvo involucrado el primer teniente Montes.

Blas Giraldo Reyes Rodríguez, de 50 años y residente en Sancti Spíritus, es
gestor del proyecto Varela y director de la biblioteca independiente 20 de
mayo. Fue condenado a 25 años de prisión en abril de 2003.

http://cubanet.org/CNews/y06/jan06/02a1.htm
CENTRO ANTICOMUNISTA
2006-01-09 03:04:59 UTC
Permalink
LA GRAN PREGUNTA ES ESTA:

Si todo lo que dicen es cierto, en cuanto a analfabetismo, etc., porque en
lugar de tanto odio, envidia y resentimiento, no nos tienen lastima, como
sentimos nosotros, TAN IMPERFECTOS por esa America Latina sufrida y
pisoteada, ignorante y piojosa, a la cual mantenemos con las sobras que
producen nuestros analfabetos?

Por que en el pais mas ignorante el hombre va a la Luna y regresa, los
adelantos tecnologicos son cosas del diario vivir al alcance de todos desde
principios del Siglo XX, los mejores sueldos se ganan, el poder adquisitivo
va en aumento anualmente, las embajadas nuestras en todo el mundo tienen
colas de "ciudadanos felices" que dan el culo por venir a "sufrir" aca,
nuestra cultura se impone y se mueren de admiracion en el resto del mundo
por lo que nosotros logramos?

Alguien ha visto los "pisos o flats" de España y cualquier pais adelantado
europeo, pisos que de acuerdo a los canones arquitecturales de estas
naciones, poseen la calidad suficiente para personas de la clase media y sin
embargo, esos mismos pisos comparados con los de aca, caben en la
sala-comedor de cualquier apartamento para gentes de bajos ingresos de este
pais que el gobierno provee?

Por que se preocupan tanto de nosotros?

Quien dedica su tiempo a un pueblo analfabeto y estupido? NADIE.

Entonces, por que se preocupan tanto por nuestros analfabetos y no se
dedican a disfrutar de la felicidad que su superioridad intelectual les da?

Quieren lideres que merezcan mas admiracion que EVO MORALES, HUGO CHAVEZ O
FIDEL CASTRO? Lideres que no han necesitado graduarse en Harvard o Yale
para desgobernar a la recua de estupidos que les siguen? Podrian gobernar a
los analfabetos americanos por casualidad? O es que aqui somos analfabetos
con infulas de inteligentes?

Al CARAJO TODOS!


Norma XXXXX

-
http://www.cubafotos.net/cubafotos1.htm

http://argentina.indymedia.org/news/2005/12/361336.php

http://www.juanperez.com/comerciales/tv.html
Sobre el ASESINO che:

http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html


http://ernesto-el-che-guevara.piranho.de/

http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org


http://www.martinoticias.com/media/audio/M-001_051004.wma


http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp


Corrupcion_en_Cuba
http://www.cadal.org/libros/pdf/Corrupcion_en_Cuba.pdf

www.therealcuba.com


"krp~" <***@verizon.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:_p9wf.1108$***@trnddc07...

"Socialism is Slavery" <Socialism-is-***@choose-freedom.xxx> wrote in
message news:Vomdney5Y8qX5V3eRVn-***@forethought.net...

>>>>> They did keep it, more or less. There was an Act passed
>>>>> around 1912 that effectively annexed Cuba to the US (said
>>>>> the US had the right to intervene any time to defend US
>>>>> interests).
>>>>
>>>> Horse shit. The Platt? That's a distortion of what it said.
>>>
>>> Yes you gusanos defend the Platt Amendment, while patriotic
>>> Cubans I have met, even those who despise Castro, revile
>>> Platt. You are the anti-Jose Marti, Ken. You don't support
>>> Cuban patriotism or sovereignty.
>>
>> Bob you are an EXTREMIST! My wife is EXTREMELY patriotic
>> as a Cuban. I fully support her.

>> I look forward to the Day Cuba is free.

> My compliments to both of you. I was born in Miami in the late
> 40's and grew up there, living there until 1979. I witnessed the
> Cuban diaspora and have nothing but sincere sympathy for all the
> Cuban people who would be free, and utter disdain for tyrants
> like Castro and his friend Bob here.

The people IN Cuba long to be free. And they KNOW they aren't!
CENTRO ANTICOMUNISTA
2006-01-09 03:12:53 UTC
Permalink
CUBA: CRISIS DE ENERGIA ELECTRICA. Por Manuel Cereijo
(Tomado de la Revista Electronica GUARACABUYA)

Cuba esta en el medio de la peor crisis electroenergetica de su historia.
Cuba cuenta con 10 plantas electricas con una capacidad instalada de 3,500
Megavatios.
Estas plantas tienen 46 unidades de generacion. Sin embargo, debido a varias
causas, que explicaremos mas adelante, la capacidad real de generacion es de
1,200 Megavatios.
Todas estas plantas utilizan petroleo como combustible.
La demanda de energia electrica en Cuba, en 1989 era de 2,500 Megavatios.
A finales del 2005, la demanda habia bajado a 950 Megavatios debido al gran
numero de industrias paralizadas, asi como a una baja en el consumo agricola
y domestico.
Porque el sistema electroenergetico no funcionan a cabalidad en Cuba? Hay
varias causas. Antes que nada, de las 10 plantas de generacion,
cinco de ellas datan de antes de 1959,
con un tiempo de servicio promedio de 65 años. El tiempo promedio de
servicio de una planta electrica, con un mantenimiento adecuado es de 35
años.
Sin embargo, el factor principal es la rotura de las plantas en Cuba debido
al uso indebido de Petroleo Cubano como combustible. Cuba produce
actualmente alrededor de 1.5 millones de toneladas de petroleo al año. El
petroleo cubano contiene un alto nivel de azufre, entre un 10% y un 13%.
Este alto nivel de azufre, hace que no se deba usar como combustible de
generacion electrica, debido a que las altas temperatures de las calderas de
combustion, convierten este azufre en acido sulfurico, el cual corroe las
calderas, haciendolas inservibles, asi como destruye otras componentes del
sistema de generacion, como cilindros, turbinas, etc.
El otro factor que afecta el sistema energetico de Cuba es el pobre sistema
de transmision y distribucion electrica. Desde los 1970s no se han
instalados nuevos sistemas, y el mantenimiento ha sido poco adecuado. Esto
produce actualmente una perdida de entre 15% y 20% de la energia generada.
Existen cuatro refinerías de petróleo en Cuba, localizadas en Cabaiguán,
Cienfuegos, La Habana, y Santiago de Cuba, con una capacidad nominal de
refinacion de 11 millones de toneladas de crudo por año, aunque la capacidad
real, debido a roturas y falta de piezas, es de unos siete millones de
toneladas al año.
Existe un oleoducto de Matanzas a Cienfuegos, de 187 Kms. de largo, y
diámetro de 530 milímetros. Este oleoducto está conectado a la refinería de
Cienfuegos, la más moderna de Cuba. Varios paises han rehusado operar esta
refineria por lo costoso de su operacion, dada la anticuada tecnologia
sovietica de esta planta.
El otro combustible usado para generar electricidad es el gas natural. El
mas limpio y eficiente de todos. Pero un pais tiene que tener gas natural, o
importarlo.Cuba no tiene gas natural. Al ser Cuba una Isla, tendria que
importarlo por mar. Esto involucra un proceso tecnologico muy costoso, y
ademas, las plantas de generacion actuales en Cuba tendrian que modificarse
para pasar de petroleo a gas natural.
Los aproximadamente 100,000 barriles de petroleos diarios que Venezuela
envia a Cuba, a un costo infimo, representan un 70% del petroleo actualmente
consumido por Cuba al año.. Entre los barriles recibidos de Venezuela, y la
produccion domestica, Cuba tiene unos 105,000 barriles diarios de petroleo,
y la industria electrica cubana necesita aproximadamente unos 65,000
barriles diarios para cumplir con su capacidad actual instalada de
generacion.
La solucion que esta tomando el gobierno cubano es la de instalar plantas
portatiles de generacion, de 2Megavatios, usando Diesel. Esta solucion es
descabellada, y muy costosa, ya que estas plantas no estan construidaa para
operar en forma continua, tendrian que ser instaladas mas de 1000, y los
sistemas de transmision tendran las mismas perdidas actuales. La solucion
optima es la renovacion total del sistema-generacion, transmision, y
distribucion- a un costo de $1,5000 millones de dolares.
Al pueblo de Cuba le espera en los proximos meses, debido a la
irresponsabilidad del gobierno, una crisis economica muy grave, ya que la
electricidad es la infraestructura mas necesaria para un pais, y la solucion
presente no resolvera este problema.

--
http://www.cubafotos.net/cubafotos1.htm

http://argentina.indymedia.org/news/2005/12/361336.php

http://www.juanperez.com/comerciales/tv.html
Sobre el ASESINO che:

http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html


http://ernesto-el-che-guevara.piranho.de/

http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org


http://www.martinoticias.com/media/audio/M-001_051004.wma


http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp


Corrupcion_en_Cuba
http://www.cadal.org/libros/pdf/Corrupcion_en_Cuba.pdf

www.therealcuba.com



--
http://www.cubafotos.net/cubafotos1.htm

http://argentina.indymedia.org/news/2005/12/361336.php

http://www.juanperez.com/comerciales/tv.html
Sobre el ASESINO che:

http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html


http://ernesto-el-che-guevara.piranho.de/

http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org


http://www.martinoticias.com/media/audio/M-001_051004.wma


http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp


Corrupcion_en_Cuba
http://www.cadal.org/libros/pdf/Corrupcion_en_Cuba.pdf

www.therealcuba.com


"CENTRO ANTICOMUNISTA" <***@Escambray.cu> a écrit dans
le message de news:3qOdne-***@look.ca...

LA GRAN PREGUNTA ES ESTA:

Si todo lo que dicen es cierto, en cuanto a analfabetismo, etc., porque en
lugar de tanto odio, envidia y resentimiento, no nos tienen lastima, como
sentimos nosotros, TAN IMPERFECTOS por esa America Latina sufrida y
pisoteada, ignorante y piojosa, a la cual mantenemos con las sobras que
producen nuestros analfabetos?

Por que en el pais mas ignorante el hombre va a la Luna y regresa, los
adelantos tecnologicos son cosas del diario vivir al alcance de todos desde
principios del Siglo XX, los mejores sueldos se ganan, el poder adquisitivo
va en aumento anualmente, las embajadas nuestras en todo el mundo tienen
colas de "ciudadanos felices" que dan el culo por venir a "sufrir" aca,
nuestra cultura se impone y se mueren de admiracion en el resto del mundo
por lo que nosotros logramos?

Alguien ha visto los "pisos o flats" de España y cualquier pais adelantado
europeo, pisos que de acuerdo a los canones arquitecturales de estas
naciones, poseen la calidad suficiente para personas de la clase media y sin
embargo, esos mismos pisos comparados con los de aca, caben en la
sala-comedor de cualquier apartamento para gentes de bajos ingresos de este
pais que el gobierno provee?

Por que se preocupan tanto de nosotros?

Quien dedica su tiempo a un pueblo analfabeto y estupido? NADIE.

Entonces, por que se preocupan tanto por nuestros analfabetos y no se
dedican a disfrutar de la felicidad que su superioridad intelectual les da?

Quieren lideres que merezcan mas admiracion que EVO MORALES, HUGO CHAVEZ O
FIDEL CASTRO? Lideres que no han necesitado graduarse en Harvard o Yale
para desgobernar a la recua de estupidos que les siguen? Podrian gobernar a
los analfabetos americanos por casualidad? O es que aqui somos analfabetos
con infulas de inteligentes?

Al CARAJO TODOS!


Norma XXXXX

-
http://www.cubafotos.net/cubafotos1.htm

http://argentina.indymedia.org/news/2005/12/361336.php

http://www.juanperez.com/comerciales/tv.html
Sobre el ASESINO che:

http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html


http://ernesto-el-che-guevara.piranho.de/

http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org


http://www.martinoticias.com/media/audio/M-001_051004.wma


http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp


Corrupcion_en_Cuba
http://www.cadal.org/libros/pdf/Corrupcion_en_Cuba.pdf

www.therealcuba.com


"krp~" <***@verizon.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:_p9wf.1108$***@trnddc07...

"Socialism is Slavery" <Socialism-is-***@choose-freedom.xxx> wrote in
message news:Vomdney5Y8qX5V3eRVn-***@forethought.net...

>>>>> They did keep it, more or less. There was an Act passed
>>>>> around 1912 that effectively annexed Cuba to the US (said
>>>>> the US had the right to intervene any time to defend US
>>>>> interests).
>>>>
>>>> Horse shit. The Platt? That's a distortion of what it said.
>>>
>>> Yes you gusanos defend the Platt Amendment, while patriotic
>>> Cubans I have met, even those who despise Castro, revile
>>> Platt. You are the anti-Jose Marti, Ken. You don't support
>>> Cuban patriotism or sovereignty.
>>
>> Bob you are an EXTREMIST! My wife is EXTREMELY patriotic
>> as a Cuban. I fully support her.

>> I look forward to the Day Cuba is free.

> My compliments to both of you. I was born in Miami in the late
> 40's and grew up there, living there until 1979. I witnessed the
> Cuban diaspora and have nothing but sincere sympathy for all the
> Cuban people who would be free, and utter disdain for tyrants
> like Castro and his friend Bob here.

The people IN Cuba long to be free. And they KNOW they aren't!
CENTRO ANTICOMUNISTA
2006-01-09 03:50:19 UTC
Permalink
http://www.futurodecuba.org/ArticlesInEnglish103.htm
http://www.futurodecuba.org/ArticlesInEnglish103.htm
--
http://www.cubafotos.net/cubafotos1.htm

http://argentina.indymedia.org/news/2005/12/361336.php

http://www.juanperez.com/comerciales/tv.html
Sobre el ASESINO che:

http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html


http://ernesto-el-che-guevara.piranho.de/

http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org


http://www.martinoticias.com/media/audio/M-001_051004.wma


http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp


Corrupcion_en_Cuba
http://www.cadal.org/libros/pdf/Corrupcion_en_Cuba.pdf

www.therealcuba.com

http://www.futurodecuba.org/ArticlesInEnglish103.htm

http://www.futurodecuba.org/ArticlesInEnglish103.htm

http://www.futurodecuba.org/ArticlesInEnglish103.htm

--
http://www.cubafotos.net/cubafotos1.htm

http://argentina.indymedia.org/news/2005/12/361336.php

http://www.juanperez.com/comerciales/tv.html
Sobre el ASESINO che:

http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html


http://ernesto-el-che-guevara.piranho.de/

http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org


http://www.martinoticias.com/media/audio/M-001_051004.wma


http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp
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